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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The_Universe" data-source="post: 1552459" data-attributes="member: 8944">I won't go through quoting all of Tacky's posts, because that would make this ungodly long.   1) Yes--I was the DM in the Ninja/Caravan situation, and continue to DM the game. 2) The Caravan was not attacked while they were moving--the PCs had spent a great deal of time setting up traps, etc. hoping to draw the percieved enemy in.  This was not a malicious, surprise attack.  The refugees walked into a trap that the PCs (in one of their better moments) had carefully created.      3) At the beginning of the combat, the Paladin was not defending herself--they were sneaking in (for food), and she saw them, and attacked the closest one.  He stabbed at her AFTER she had already smacked him a good one, and made an attempt to disengage, during which he was smote (smited?).  He pinged evil, but the fact that only a minority of the attackers did should have clued her in to the fact that something was at least little off.  Then, after having struck him down, and AFTER she realized that the attackers were starving (and having already been clued in that there may have been some wrongdoing on the parts of the Caravan), she laughed, and said it was no big deal--he was "evil."   It really goes back to whether you're justified in killing things, just because they are "evil."  This was not a case of self-defense, but rather an evil NPC defending himself because he had already been attacked, for no better reason than being present, and evil.   4) This was not an attempt to screw the player.  She has a code that we worked out, together, and attacking without questioning was clearly out-of-bounds, within the code that she helped work out.  Paladins SHOULD defend the weak and hunt Evil, but this was not a clear-cut case of doing so, as I hope I have made clear above.  I didn't make a big deal about it, or admonish her in any extreme way, I just noted that it probably wasn't cool, and said she'd have to be extra good for a while if she wanted the paladin abilities back. 5) The loss of abilities lasted less than a full session.  This was not an action that made the Light cry out for the terrible injustice of it--it just wasn't very paladin-like, as paladins are supposed to be IMC.  So, she lost the ability to smite for 3 hours.  A relatively minor punishment, and it let her know what was out of bounds for the future.   6) I think you and I just have entirely different definitions of what is evil, as well as what is Evil.  Mind Flayers are always evil, making them Evil, IMC.  Things like humans, goblins, gnolls, orcs, and hobgoblins are usually evil, which means they get an extra shot at redemption, unless they have somehow proven that they are Evil, rather than just evil.  I don't expect Paladin's to try to redeem Demons, Devils, or Chromatic Dragons (for example), but I do expect them to take a hint when I make it explicit that they should roll a spot check (so that they can see that the ninja attacking them is emaciated).   In this case, the guy was not a cold-blooded murderer--he was a thief who had been stealing extra food from his own people (until they ran out completely).  He was sneaky, he was pretty good with his sword, and he was certainly not just neutral--he was just petty, self serving, and cruel.  I think that counts as evil, and for you, that might just be neutral.   I guess I subscribe to something closer to the active morality codes of Dragonstar than I do to the "Kill the Evil things" of what is apparently a great deal more common.  With so much magic in DnD that can mask, hide, or change alignments, acting on what Detect Evil says without question just seems...wrong.  Detect Evil is a useful tool for Paladins, but it's hardly enough for them to base an entire moral compass upon.  Just like everything else, it's fallible.</blockquote>

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