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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MrMyth" data-source="post: 5003901" data-attributes="member: 61155">I don't think this is remotely an accurate representation of the opposing viewpoint, Cadfan. I think what people are saying - and, at least, what my own view is - is that at higher levels, the raw numbers go up in difficulty to compensate for PCs gaining power in other ways. They have considerably more options and abilities than they did early on. Now, the counter-argument is that the monsters get more powerful abilities as well - but both sides get more powerful abilities, and only the PCs really get more of them.  Enemies still have a pretty concise list of what they can do in combat. The PCs, on the other hand, have 4 times as many Encounter and Daily powers as at level 1. They have over half-a-dozen utility powers, they have countless magic item abilities, as well as paragon path and epic destiny features - not to mention a large list of feats. They can go through numerous fights without resorting to At-Wills, and can pick and choose which powers to start off each fight with. They can put those powers together in extremely powerful combos, they can acquire significant bonuses through those powers, and can shut down enemies and recover from harm with incredible effectiveness. A combat at level 30 that had them needing the same exact numbers to hit as at level 1 - but having all their expanded options and capability - would be easier than that 1st level combat. That is why the math isn't inherently broken - it simply compensates for non-numerical power gain.  Now, whether it compensates appropriately? That's hard to say, and can't really be directly measured. I think both sides have solid arguments for whether it is appropriate or not enough. But saying there is 'no apparent reason' for the shift in numbers is just not a statement I can agree with. You might not feel it is enough of a reason, but a reason is clearly there. I don't think Expertise was ever intended. I think the designers approached things with a philosophy similar to what I described here - that higher-level options made up for some loss in numerical power... and then panicked, like with Skill Challenges, when people complained about it. And they came out with Expertise as a quick fix, despite the very concept of the feats blatantly shattering core principles of 4E.</blockquote>

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