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<blockquote data-quote="the Jester" data-source="post: 492476" data-attributes="member: 1210">This discussion continues to be really fun!&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin&nbsp; &nbsp; :D"&nbsp; data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin&nbsp; &nbsp; :D"&nbsp; data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> I think one thing that's being overlooked here is the overlap factor.&nbsp; Some poisons cause ability damage- heck, most poisons do- but ability damage still gets a section and poison gets a section.&nbsp; I posit that the effect, not the source, is what matters.About elves reduced to wis 0 or dragons reduced to dex 0: the problem here is with poor wording.&nbsp; A dragon at dex 0 isn't paralyzed, but iirc a creature with dex 0 can't move.&nbsp; A creature with a wis 0 isn't conscious because it doesn't count as a creature anymore (the same is true for a cha 0).&nbsp; (This is discussed, iirc, in the PH in the chapter on ability scores.)&nbsp; As to the fine line between sleep and unconsciousness- all right, I can go with that (Drow poison causes unconsciousness).A ghoul's touch causes paralysis; so does a Portugese man-o-war's.&nbsp; Granted that it's a natural attack (ex rather than su), but I still call paralysis paralysis.&nbsp; Dragons are immune to it regardless of source.Interesting that the SRD lumps hold and paralysis together, though; I didn't know that.About pixie arrows: here we have a sleep effect caused by a poison delivery mechanism.&nbsp; I'd say elves are immune- but again, I don't have my books, perhaps the MM says it causes &quot;unconsciousness&quot; instead of &quot;sleep&quot; and perhaps it even specifies whether elves are immune.&nbsp; Have to check once I go get them all back...</blockquote>

[QUOTE="the Jester, post: 492476, member: 1210"] This discussion continues to be really fun! :D :D I think one thing that's being overlooked here is the overlap factor. Some poisons cause ability damage- heck, most poisons do- but ability damage still gets a section and poison gets a section. I posit that the effect, not the source, is what matters. About elves reduced to wis 0 or dragons reduced to dex 0: the problem here is with poor wording. A dragon at dex 0 isn't paralyzed, but iirc a creature with dex 0 can't move. A creature with a wis 0 isn't conscious because it doesn't count as a creature anymore (the same is true for a cha 0). (This is discussed, iirc, in the PH in the chapter on ability scores.) As to the fine line between sleep and unconsciousness- all right, I can go with that (Drow poison causes unconsciousness). A ghoul's touch causes paralysis; so does a Portugese man-o-war's. Granted that it's a natural attack (ex rather than su), but I still call paralysis paralysis. Dragons are immune to it regardless of source. Interesting that the SRD lumps hold and paralysis together, though; I didn't know that. About pixie arrows: here we have a sleep effect caused by a poison delivery mechanism. I'd say elves are immune- but again, I don't have my books, perhaps the MM says it causes "unconsciousness" instead of "sleep" and perhaps it even specifies whether elves are immune. Have to check once I go get them all back... [/QUOTE]

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