Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Million Dollar TTRPG Crowdfunders
Most Anticipated Tabletop RPGs Of The Year
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Enchanted Trinkets Complete--a hardcover book containing over 500 magic items for your D&D games!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Does Opportunity Action + MBA = Opportunity Attack?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="DracoSuave" data-source="post: 5376510" data-attributes="member: 71571"><p>1) Every Shaman ever.</p><p></p><p>2) Pre-errata Blurred Step. I both won and lost a bet over that guy. This one even answers the 'Opportunity Action that doesn't involve an attack' challenge! 2 for 1!</p><p></p><p>I didn't even need to crack open a book, right there's two, and they're both ubiquitous at-will class features to boot! Every member of those classes has an answer that satisfies your challenge.</p><p></p><p>One of those was certainly in development before the PHB came out.</p><p></p><p>Any other requests?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Except... you've just removed opportunity attacks themselves, i.e. what we define as an opportunity attack. By making 'Opportunity Attack' into 'An attack made with an opportunity action' you've then removed the 'Thing triggered by moving or using ranged/area stuff adjacent to your enemy.' So you HAVE TO FILL THAT VOID.</p><p></p><p>So you have this new thing, you call it, I dunno, Reactive Strike. Name doesn't matter. So now you have some things that generally affect opportunity actions, and specific things that affect this Reactive Strike thing. Now, you might want to have things that ONLY affect reactive strike, because you don't want them for general use by, say, shaman spirit boons, or whatever. You might claim this is inelegant, but that's simply not true--sometimes you want specific powers to get bonuses that general powers do not. The martial power source has an entire section of MP2 devoted to this concept.</p><p></p><p>So... you have some abilities that key off of reactive strike, and others off the general opportunity action. And... you might have some triggered attacks that you want to key off the first example that aren't reactive strike.... so the elegant way is to simply say 'You may reactive strike when (new trigger)'</p><p></p><p>So... to recap what happens after you change the system:</p><p></p><p>You have things that key off of opportunity actions.</p><p>You have things that key off of the specific opportunity action that triggers from moving/ranged/area in range</p><p>You have things that also benefit from the above but are not that specific trigger.</p><p></p><p>In other words, the exact same situation you have now. You have: Opportunity action-keyed rules, opportunity attack-keyed rules, and every trigger for an opportunity action in the game can -elegantly- decide which categories apply to it simply by adding or omitting 'as an opportunity attack' to their text. That's how it works NOW. Everything intended to work with the same stuff as opportunity attacks DO, simply by keying directly off opportunity attacks, rather than opportunity actions. (Heavy Blade Opportunity, for example)</p><p></p><p>This is important, because it's clearly intended (as an example) that Fighters don't get a bonus to ALL opportunity action-class attacks... just the opportunity attack itself. But... there are alternative ways to trigger, and effects of, opportunity attacks, and they're explicitly defined.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>As a nitpick, most melee rogues are Strength-secondary. OAs are hardly a problem for them.</p><p></p><p>More importantly, many fighters are better at planning their attacks than sneaking attacks in as a matter of reaction. Why must they automatically be equal at both simply because they happen to be good at one?</p><p></p><p></p><p>What it comes down to tho is this lauding of 'consistancy' in all things like it's a design goal... it's not. The design goal involves simple rules, with complexity coming from specific exceptions to those rules.</p><p></p><p>Exception-based design is diametrically opposed to the concept of universal consistancy. Consistancy and exception are antonyms.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DracoSuave, post: 5376510, member: 71571"] 1) Every Shaman ever. 2) Pre-errata Blurred Step. I both won and lost a bet over that guy. This one even answers the 'Opportunity Action that doesn't involve an attack' challenge! 2 for 1! I didn't even need to crack open a book, right there's two, and they're both ubiquitous at-will class features to boot! Every member of those classes has an answer that satisfies your challenge. One of those was certainly in development before the PHB came out. Any other requests? Except... you've just removed opportunity attacks themselves, i.e. what we define as an opportunity attack. By making 'Opportunity Attack' into 'An attack made with an opportunity action' you've then removed the 'Thing triggered by moving or using ranged/area stuff adjacent to your enemy.' So you HAVE TO FILL THAT VOID. So you have this new thing, you call it, I dunno, Reactive Strike. Name doesn't matter. So now you have some things that generally affect opportunity actions, and specific things that affect this Reactive Strike thing. Now, you might want to have things that ONLY affect reactive strike, because you don't want them for general use by, say, shaman spirit boons, or whatever. You might claim this is inelegant, but that's simply not true--sometimes you want specific powers to get bonuses that general powers do not. The martial power source has an entire section of MP2 devoted to this concept. So... you have some abilities that key off of reactive strike, and others off the general opportunity action. And... you might have some triggered attacks that you want to key off the first example that aren't reactive strike.... so the elegant way is to simply say 'You may reactive strike when (new trigger)' So... to recap what happens after you change the system: You have things that key off of opportunity actions. You have things that key off of the specific opportunity action that triggers from moving/ranged/area in range You have things that also benefit from the above but are not that specific trigger. In other words, the exact same situation you have now. You have: Opportunity action-keyed rules, opportunity attack-keyed rules, and every trigger for an opportunity action in the game can -elegantly- decide which categories apply to it simply by adding or omitting 'as an opportunity attack' to their text. That's how it works NOW. Everything intended to work with the same stuff as opportunity attacks DO, simply by keying directly off opportunity attacks, rather than opportunity actions. (Heavy Blade Opportunity, for example) This is important, because it's clearly intended (as an example) that Fighters don't get a bonus to ALL opportunity action-class attacks... just the opportunity attack itself. But... there are alternative ways to trigger, and effects of, opportunity attacks, and they're explicitly defined. As a nitpick, most melee rogues are Strength-secondary. OAs are hardly a problem for them. More importantly, many fighters are better at planning their attacks than sneaking attacks in as a matter of reaction. Why must they automatically be equal at both simply because they happen to be good at one? What it comes down to tho is this lauding of 'consistancy' in all things like it's a design goal... it's not. The design goal involves simple rules, with complexity coming from specific exceptions to those rules. Exception-based design is diametrically opposed to the concept of universal consistancy. Consistancy and exception are antonyms. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Does Opportunity Action + MBA = Opportunity Attack?
Top