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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Iku Rex" data-source="post: 2242599" data-attributes="member: 752">Let's see what the spells say: The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. --alter selfThe assumed form can’t have more Hit Dice than your caster level (or the subject’s HD, whichever is lower), to a maximum of 15 HD at 15th level.-- polymorphYou're telling me that the polymorph rule doesn't obviously overrule the alter self rule? In your mind the value representing "maximum allowed HD" can very well be both "5" and "15"? There is no way these rules can reasonably belong in the same spell. I "admit" that the newer more inclusive text overrides that of alter self?  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":eek:" title="Eek!    :eek:"  data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":eek:" /> Have I ever said otherwise?Let's see what you consider a "newer, more inclusive text" with regards to size. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. --alter selfYou can’t cause a subject to assume a form smaller than Fine, ... -- polymorphHow is polymorph "more inclusive"? If the rule actually did anything (as we know, it doesn't) it'd be more restrictive. Are you saying that polymorph can't add a restriction not found in alter self?  If alter self didn't exist and these two rules both appeared in polymorph (almost as in 3.0...) nobody would bat an eyelid. It seems to me that you, much like Thanee, are arguing from your conclusion. Try "proving" that the alter self rule is contradicted by polymorph without first assuming that polymorph lets you change into a creature of any size because the alter self rule doesn't apply to polymorph.</blockquote>

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