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<blockquote data-quote="Iku Rex" data-source="post: 2253352" data-attributes="member: 752">You're right - brain fart.&nbsp;&nbsp; (Will edit post to avoid any future confusion.) You could declare any alter self rule &quot;replaced&quot; by simply defining it as &quot;rule concerning the subject of what you can and can't do with the spell&quot;. Polymorph has plenty of rules on that subject you could line it up with. Anything goes. More reasonably you could define the polymorph rule as a rule on the subject of &quot;how small can you become with polymorph&quot;, and then only the downward size limitation is replaced.How about this: The subject of the alter self rule in question is &quot;whether or not the new form must be within one size category of your normal size&quot;. No corresponding polymorph rule there.Your approach to finding the &quot;subject&quot; of a rule is arbitrary and can be used to get rid of any alter self rule. (Unless it's actually repeated in polymorph.)&nbsp; The correct method, as per the rules in the Player's Handbook, is that the alter self rules apply unless polymorph says differently. Are you willing to apply your &quot;subject of rule&quot; method on polymorph any object and shapechange with regards to inheritance from polymorph? You're going to have to get pretty creative to avoid silly results...Yes.Alter self says &quot;you can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself&quot;. This rule is not overruled by any rule in polymorph, making it part of the spell.(Subject of rule: &quot;Which forms you can change into&quot;. Since polymorph has rules on this subject, and does not repeat the rule from alter self, you presumably think the correct answer is &quot;no&quot;?)&nbsp;Yes.According to polymorph the maximum HD for the new form is &quot;15&quot;, overruling alter self stating that the maximum HD is &quot;5&quot;. I'd have said &quot;yes&quot; if not for Hypersmurf's post. Since wraiths are incorporeal due to their subtype, and you don't get the subtype, then &quot;no&quot;. If the new form had some explicit natural ability to become/be incorporeal it'd be trickier, but OTTOMH I'd say &quot;yes&quot;. (I see no by-the-rules reason why the vampire can't become a corporeal wraith with alter self. It can't do that with polymorph, even if it had worked on undead targets or permitted undead forms.) Look like it, yes.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Iku Rex, post: 2253352, member: 752"] You're right - brain fart. (Will edit post to avoid any future confusion.) You could declare any alter self rule "replaced" by simply defining it as "rule concerning the subject of what you can and can't do with the spell". Polymorph has plenty of rules on that subject you could line it up with. Anything goes. More reasonably you could define the polymorph rule as a rule on the subject of "how small can you become with polymorph", and then only the downward size limitation is replaced. How about this: The subject of the alter self rule in question is "whether or not the new form must be within one size category of your normal size". No corresponding polymorph rule there. Your approach to finding the "subject" of a rule is arbitrary and can be used to get rid of any alter self rule. (Unless it's actually repeated in polymorph.) The correct method, as per the rules in the Player's Handbook, is that the alter self rules apply unless polymorph says [i]differently[/i]. Are you willing to apply your "subject of rule" method on polymorph any object and shapechange with regards to inheritance from polymorph? You're going to have to get pretty creative to avoid silly results... Yes. Alter self says "you can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself". This rule is not overruled by any rule in polymorph, making it part of the spell. (Subject of rule: "Which forms you can change into". Since polymorph has rules on this subject, and does not repeat the rule from alter self, you presumably think the correct answer is "no"?) Yes. According to polymorph the maximum HD for the new form is "15", overruling alter self stating that the maximum HD is "5". I'd have said "yes" if not for Hypersmurf's post. Since wraiths are incorporeal due to their subtype, and you don't get the subtype, then "no". If the new form had some explicit natural ability to become/be incorporeal it'd be trickier, but OTTOMH I'd say "yes". (I see no by-the-rules reason why the vampire can't become a corporeal wraith with alter self. It can't do that with polymorph, even if it had worked on undead targets or permitted undead forms.) Look like it, yes. [/QUOTE]

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