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Message: <blockquote data-quote="irdeggman" data-source="post: 3543182" data-attributes="member: 16285">But I didn't originally bring up using "English" as the means of determining a meaning that is not given in the rules text. Nor did I bring the “BECAUSE IT'S SO FRIGGEN OBVIOUS” line of argument to the table either.The rules spell out that an invisible attacker denies his opponent his Dex Mod.  The rules also spell out that a "blind" defender loses his Dex bonus.  The rules also call out "concealment" as "see the following".Now where does it say that being "hidden" denies your opponent his Dex mod?Where does it state that hidden is equivalent to being invisible. Not in the hide skill description - in fact several people have pointed that being hidden is not the same as being invisible but they are also inferring (or flat out stating) that "some of the benefits of being invisible" apply when you are hidden.Either "hidden" is the same as "invisible" or it is not.  The rules indicate that it is not and those wishing to view it as otherwise have yet to provide a rules text to support their case, whereas those who have said the two are different have pointed out rules that back their stance up.</blockquote>