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Does the Artificer Suck?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 8177043" data-attributes="member: 6750235"><p>I have a few concerns with some of the comments.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>For the record, sage advice is the official ruling when it appears. Tweets are not.</p><p></p><p>Errata is the editing of unclear, incomplete, or incorrect information. Older copies that predate the errata are not the official RAW -- they are outdated and that's why the errata exists and is readily available.</p><p></p><p>Nothing in Unearthed Arcana is RAW or official. It's unofficial playtest material. UA articles have no relevance to official rulings or gameplay.</p><p></p><p>My concern is that those facts were being disputed. A DM at a table can ignore or change any of that but that does not change what's official and what's not.</p><p></p><p>My understanding is the errata regarding spell scrolls was because spells with longer casting times than an action could be cast with an action using the wording pre-errata. Needing a scroll in hand to cast as a reaction for certain spells is not a big deal compared to casting low level spells with longer casting times on an action after using downtime to scribe scrolls. Page 141 of the DMG pre-errata confirms that items allowing the user to cast a spell use the spell's normal casting time. The action to use a scroll was for non-spell scrolls (scrolls of protection) and the errata for page 200 clarifies this the way it was intended. This isn't something to debate as not official or RAW because errata is both.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The SSI uses the "use an object" action which has significant ramifications and is not limited in the same way as the "cast a spell" action, and it does not use "activating an item" rules because the rules for the SSI are specified under that feature. That's one of the reasons it's such a good feature.</p><p></p><p>The feature states the creature takes an action to produce the effect and the creature concentrates on the effect if concentration is required. It's not a wand, or staff, or scroll, but those DC's listed in the DMG are based on the proficiency bonus and caster ability score expected to be able to cast the spell in those calculations. That's why a 9th-level spell scroll uses a 19 DC or +11 attack bonus, and why staves are similar in the DC to spell casters casting the spells. The only difference is the SSI specifies using artificer's INT modifier; nothing else in the DC formula changes. Even the ring of spell storing uses the original caster's proficiency in calculating a spell's attack bonus or save DC (even if the SSI isn't a ring a spell storing it demonstrates the consistency of how these mechanics have been with items).</p><p></p><p>The only change to the DC / attack formula listed is using the artificer's INT bonus. </p><p></p><p>[USER=6716779]@Zardnaar[/USER] The artificer doesn't suck. Even the alchemist that people like point to does well (the only issue it has is it uses resources faster than other subclasses). </p><p></p><p>Having less spell slots than a full caster isn't too much of an issue. Half progression isn't the same thing as having half the slots (depending on level it's usually about 2/3's to 3/4's number of slots). It's the later access to higher level spells or no access to the highest level spells that makes the real difference. For example, the SSI at 11th level gives the base class 10 spells slots of 1st thru 3rd-levels and 10 spell uses of 1st or 2nd level before subclass abilities. A bard (you mentioned these are better in your experience) has 16 slots total at that level. A lot of lower level magic instead of a little higher level magic is where the artificer's at.</p><p></p><p>Spell slots look like this:</p><p></p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">Level</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">Artificer (with SSI)</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">Bard</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">1</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">2</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">2</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">2</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">2</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">3</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">3</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">3</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">6</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">4</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">3</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">7</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">5</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">6</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">9</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">6</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">6</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">10</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">7</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">7</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">11</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">8</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">7</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">12</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">9</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">9</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">14</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">10</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">9</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">15</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">11</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">10 (20)</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">16</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">12</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">10 (20)</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">16</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">13</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">11 (21)</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">17</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">14</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">11 (21)</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">17</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">15</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">12 (22)</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">18</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">16</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">12 (22)</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">18</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">17</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">14 (24)</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">19</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">18</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">14 (24)</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">20</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">19</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">15 (25)</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">21</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">20</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">15 (25)</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">22</p> </td></tr></table><p></p><p>An alchemist adds 3 free elixirs, 5 lesser restorations, and a greater restoration / heal to the mix as what's considered a weak artificer. The first 2 levels are barely different. The second tier there's some gap but cantrips are an option and infusions are long lasting. The SSI makes up the difference in the 3rd and 4th tiers.</p><p></p><p>Spells known vs prepped looks like this: </p><p></p><table style='width: 100%'><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">Level</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">Artificer (with SSI)</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">Bard (lore)</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">1</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">4</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">4</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">2</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">4</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">5</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">3</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">6</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">6</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">4</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">8</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">7</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">5</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">10</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">8 (10)</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">6</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">11</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">9 (11)</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">7</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">11</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">10 (12)</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">8</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">13</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">11 (13)</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">9</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">15</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">12 (14)</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">10</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">16</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">14 (16)</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">11</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">16 (17)</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">15 (17)</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">12</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">17 (18)</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">15 (17)</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">13</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">19 (20)</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">16 (18)</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">14</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">20 (21)</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">18 (20)</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">15</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">20 (21)</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">19 (21)</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">16</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">21 (22)</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">19 (21)</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">17</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">23 (24)</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">20 (22)</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">18</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">24 (25)</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">22 (24)</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">19</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">24 (25)</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">22 (24)</p> </td></tr><tr><td><p style="text-align: center">20</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">25 (26)</p> </td><td><p style="text-align: center">22 (24)</p> </td></tr></table><p></p><p>There's no lack in the spells prepped vs the spells known and the artificer has the luxury of swapping out situational spells because of the preparation mechanic. Getting back to the alchemist, add 6 1st-level equivalents in the elixirs and no need to prep lesser restoration later. The number of infusions is gravy on top.</p><p></p><p>The reusability of the cannons or defender give those subclasses long term ability, and the arcane armor adds even more infusions and higher attunement capacity.</p><p></p><p>Bards gain expertise in 4 skills. Artificers gain expertise in tools. </p><p>Bards have inspiration. Artificers gain flash of genius.</p><p></p><p>What's more, artificers have good armor class bards do not, better at will damage, and better saving throw proficiencies (CON and INT vs DEX and CHA). And they are better at creating magic items in campaigns utilizing the system.</p><p></p><p>Bards get less magic use but more powerful spell access and more uses of inspiration over flash of genius, but artificer get more magic use overall and are more durable. They don't suck.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ashrym, post: 8177043, member: 6750235"] I have a few concerns with some of the comments. For the record, sage advice is the official ruling when it appears. Tweets are not. Errata is the editing of unclear, incomplete, or incorrect information. Older copies that predate the errata are not the official RAW -- they are outdated and that's why the errata exists and is readily available. Nothing in Unearthed Arcana is RAW or official. It's unofficial playtest material. UA articles have no relevance to official rulings or gameplay. My concern is that those facts were being disputed. A DM at a table can ignore or change any of that but that does not change what's official and what's not. My understanding is the errata regarding spell scrolls was because spells with longer casting times than an action could be cast with an action using the wording pre-errata. Needing a scroll in hand to cast as a reaction for certain spells is not a big deal compared to casting low level spells with longer casting times on an action after using downtime to scribe scrolls. Page 141 of the DMG pre-errata confirms that items allowing the user to cast a spell use the spell's normal casting time. The action to use a scroll was for non-spell scrolls (scrolls of protection) and the errata for page 200 clarifies this the way it was intended. This isn't something to debate as not official or RAW because errata is both. The SSI uses the "use an object" action which has significant ramifications and is not limited in the same way as the "cast a spell" action, and it does not use "activating an item" rules because the rules for the SSI are specified under that feature. That's one of the reasons it's such a good feature. The feature states the creature takes an action to produce the effect and the creature concentrates on the effect if concentration is required. It's not a wand, or staff, or scroll, but those DC's listed in the DMG are based on the proficiency bonus and caster ability score expected to be able to cast the spell in those calculations. That's why a 9th-level spell scroll uses a 19 DC or +11 attack bonus, and why staves are similar in the DC to spell casters casting the spells. The only difference is the SSI specifies using artificer's INT modifier; nothing else in the DC formula changes. Even the ring of spell storing uses the original caster's proficiency in calculating a spell's attack bonus or save DC (even if the SSI isn't a ring a spell storing it demonstrates the consistency of how these mechanics have been with items). The only change to the DC / attack formula listed is using the artificer's INT bonus. [USER=6716779]@Zardnaar[/USER] The artificer doesn't suck. Even the alchemist that people like point to does well (the only issue it has is it uses resources faster than other subclasses). Having less spell slots than a full caster isn't too much of an issue. Half progression isn't the same thing as having half the slots (depending on level it's usually about 2/3's to 3/4's number of slots). It's the later access to higher level spells or no access to the highest level spells that makes the real difference. For example, the SSI at 11th level gives the base class 10 spells slots of 1st thru 3rd-levels and 10 spell uses of 1st or 2nd level before subclass abilities. A bard (you mentioned these are better in your experience) has 16 slots total at that level. A lot of lower level magic instead of a little higher level magic is where the artificer's at. Spell slots look like this: [TABLE] [TR] [TD][CENTER]Level[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]Artificer (with SSI)[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]Bard[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]1[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]2[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]2[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]2[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]2[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]3[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]3[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]3[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]6[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]4[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]3[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]7[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]5[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]6[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]9[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]6[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]6[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]10[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]7[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]7[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]11[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]8[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]7[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]12[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]9[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]9[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]14[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]10[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]9[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]15[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]11[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]10 (20)[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]16[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]12[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]10 (20)[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]16[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]13[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]11 (21)[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]17[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]14[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]11 (21)[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]17[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]15[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]12 (22)[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]18[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]16[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]12 (22)[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]18[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]17[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]14 (24)[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]19[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]18[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]14 (24)[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]20[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]19[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]15 (25)[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]21[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]20[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]15 (25)[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]22[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] An alchemist adds 3 free elixirs, 5 lesser restorations, and a greater restoration / heal to the mix as what's considered a weak artificer. The first 2 levels are barely different. The second tier there's some gap but cantrips are an option and infusions are long lasting. The SSI makes up the difference in the 3rd and 4th tiers. Spells known vs prepped looks like this: [TABLE] [TR] [TD][CENTER]Level[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]Artificer (with SSI)[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]Bard (lore)[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]1[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]4[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]4[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]2[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]4[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]5[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]3[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]6[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]6[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]4[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]8[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]7[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]5[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]10[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]8 (10)[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]6[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]11[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]9 (11)[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]7[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]11[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]10 (12)[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]8[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]13[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]11 (13)[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]9[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]15[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]12 (14)[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]10[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]16[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]14 (16)[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]11[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]16 (17)[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]15 (17)[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]12[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]17 (18)[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]15 (17)[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]13[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]19 (20)[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]16 (18)[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]14[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]20 (21)[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]18 (20)[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]15[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]20 (21)[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]19 (21)[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]16[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]21 (22)[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]19 (21)[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]17[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]23 (24)[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]20 (22)[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]18[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]24 (25)[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]22 (24)[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]19[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]24 (25)[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]22 (24)[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD][CENTER]20[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]25 (26)[/CENTER][/TD] [TD][CENTER]22 (24)[/CENTER][/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] There's no lack in the spells prepped vs the spells known and the artificer has the luxury of swapping out situational spells because of the preparation mechanic. Getting back to the alchemist, add 6 1st-level equivalents in the elixirs and no need to prep lesser restoration later. The number of infusions is gravy on top. The reusability of the cannons or defender give those subclasses long term ability, and the arcane armor adds even more infusions and higher attunement capacity. Bards gain expertise in 4 skills. Artificers gain expertise in tools. Bards have inspiration. Artificers gain flash of genius. What's more, artificers have good armor class bards do not, better at will damage, and better saving throw proficiencies (CON and INT vs DEX and CHA). And they are better at creating magic items in campaigns utilizing the system. Bards get less magic use but more powerful spell access and more uses of inspiration over flash of genius, but artificer get more magic use overall and are more durable. They don't suck. [/QUOTE]
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