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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 8379743" data-attributes="member: 6750235">No, spiritual guardians last up to 10 minutes while maintaining it via concentration.  There's no "10 min a level".  That means a maximum of 10 minutes and can drop easily due to taking damage multiple times per combat and failing a concentration check.Not really.  Spirit guardians is a 1 of 2 3rd-level slots at 5th level.  Spiritual weapon is 1 of 3 2nd-level slots.  The cleric is generally good for 2 encounters using the strategy mentioned.  A dungeon where encounters are close might allow for more but that also brings more encounters with it.The 10th level cleric is using all the slots from 2nd level up just to cover spirit guardians for 6 encounters over a day and doing practically nothing else.  How is that demonstrating versatility by blowing all the resources on damage going into levels beyond what you say you play?2d12+1d8 or WIS mod as selected by the ability the cleric gains at 8th level.  That's the cantrip damage with toll the dead assuming the target already took damage.  That's 3 levels later and ignores the artillerist's bonus to all damage spells instead of just cantrips.  The cannon damage replaces the spiritual weapon damage.  It's 2d8 vs 1d8+3or4 WIS mod so the cannon does more damage for a lower cost using the same bonus action.  It's true upcasting can increase damage, but your highest level slots are always going to be limited and the strategy given isn't leaving room for casting other spells.It's also true the artillerist can just use Tasha's caustic brew for more damage and that concentration to go with the cannons and cantrips.The WIS modifier looks like it's taking a hit here relative to the artillerist INT because you're adding a feat to replace an ASI at this point.  ASI's are also limited.This is something you said, yes.  Now it's something you repeated.  I need to see you demonstrate your assertion because the cleric casting those spells isn't a cleric also maintaining the spiritual weapon and spirit guardian spells every fight.  Not enough slots.The artillerists has 2 thunder (thunderwave and shatter), 2 cold (ice storm and cone of cold), and 2 fire spells (scorching ray and fireball) with which to work.The cleric and use higher level spells earlier, but damage spells don't do well keeping up with hp inflation by CR on monsters in the first place.  They are good at dealing with low hp numbers, not high hp targets.  Radiant damage doesn't change that. Right, but clerics don't have the abilities of light clerics and nature clerics and arcana clerics and tempest clerics and etc.This is another example of grabbing different abilities from different options as if they are all available at the same time on the same character, much like changing which class is being compared during the comparison.Radiance of the dawn is also 1/short rest to start and 2/short rest that averages 31 damage on a failed save at 20th level.  That's not enough to take out a CR 2 59 hp ogre at any level.The light cleric spending an action and a channel divinity for 8-26 damage at 6th level or 12-30 damage at 10th level doesn't mean much when it's a situational benefit against number that the artillerist would just do a 4-32 damage shatter through the same levels if the need comes up.That's the feat taking away the ASI that I mentioned above.  That means lower DC's, spell attack rolls, and related bonuses.  Or the artillerist also spends a feat on something useful.On that same note, however, artificers have CON as a class saving through already for concentration checks, build a guaranteed AC from infusions to take less chances at failing a concentration check, have an infusion called mind sharpener that spends charges not to fail a failed concentration check, can flash of genius a concentration check, and has a capstone the gives a big bonus to all saves.The cleric's ability to spend a feat to still fall well behind what an artificer can do to avoid losing concentration does not impress me.It's true a light cleric can cast fireball, but that's still clearing fodder and something artillerists also pick up 4 levels later.  Plus, not all clerics can cast fireball.  Your premise is that artificers suck except for battlesmiths and that brought up the artillerist to compare.  If one cleric domain grants fireball that doesn't prove artillerists suck compared to all clerics.That's cherry picking abilities from various subclasses and a general representation of the class.Why would artificers run out of spells faster when most of their abilities for the subclasses in question aren't using slots or only using 1st-level slots for longer durations?An artillerist has 4 hours of cannons at 3rd level.  The cleric example you gave has 2 encounters worth of slots at the rate being used at 5th level.  That artillerist has 7 hours of cannons at 5th level compared to 2 encounter worth of spells.  The artillerist can spend 4 slots on spells over the same two encounters and still have 3 hours worth of cannons.Full spellcasters don't have that many more slots because of how spell progression works.  Both progressions give slots as 4/3/3/3 and only a single slot difference in the 5th level slot.  The higher level spells matter but the majority of slots are identical.  Out of the total number of slots the "half-caster" is generally about 2/3's of the same total number of slots, give or take.Slot for slot the cleric looks better but it's not slot for slot because the cleric in your example is burning through higher level spells faster trying to demonstrate a damage advantage when the artillerist is using the much more efficient cannons.You missed a decent point for clerics because TCoE also gave them harness divine energy to recover slots, but it's not the number of slots causing clerics to run out faster -- it's how those slots are being used.How is that an example of artillerists sucking compared to clerics, though?The sorcerer cantrips aren't any better than the artificer cantrips.  Quickening and extending spirit guardians doesn't make the fight last longer in order do more damage.  The fight ends when the fight ends and a party cannot actually do more damage than it takes to end the fight.  Spirit guardians might last into multiple encounters in a dungeon by quickening it but that also tends to come with more encounters to deal with in that environment. What is relevant is the damage per round getting added by spirit guardians, not the duration of the spell.  If duration matters more to you, then the hour for a 1st level slot is superior.Any artificer can use booming blade or green-flame blade.  They are class list cantrips.  The issue with using them is the attack is a standard weapon attack instead of a spell attack and half the artificer subclasses already get the extra attack feature if they want to focus on weapon damage.  Using those cantrips falls into the "specific build" concepts.  The arcana cleric using them is also splitting focus on a weapon attack stat and a spell casting stat at this point.  TCoE helps by replacing potent cantrip with blessed strikes in this case, but the build using those cantrips is either giving up weapon attack accuracy or spell attack accuracy / save DC's compared to other builds.Nature clerics don't absorb elements at will.  They use a reaction to give resistance to one instance of damage to one individual.  The ability is called dampen elements.Using shillelagh for less MAD issues is not bad, but it cost the bonus action in the first round.  Don't forget your action economy.  That's a bonus action a cannon fires, and artillerists don't need something like shillelagh in the first place because they are already using spell attacks keyed on INT.And the nature cleric loses the light cleric spell list you were talking up.  Cherry picking abilities from various classes and sublasses is not a comparison to a class or subclass.If your table ignores the game design is that the fault of the rules or your table?Spirit guardians might last into a second encounter based on the environment at the time, but if you're using 10 min / level as you seemed to indicate earlier it's a house, not an issue with a class or subclass.Plus, I play as many encounters as it takes to follow the storyline.  That is often more than 6-8 encounters, especially in cities and dungeons.  I'm not no one.  ;-)Proof blessing beats most artificer abilities?  I'm not convinced bless beat faerie fire or levitate.  Probably not even the alchemist elixir because that doesn't require concentration so it's a stackable buff.  ;-)Extending isn't a cleric -- we're changing gears back to divine soul.  What a divine soul can or cannot do isn't relevant to comparing the artillerist to clerics.Looking at extending bless doesn't change the number of rounds the encounter takes.  It only covers those encounters that take longer than a minutes.  Extending spirit guardians was a better use of sorcery points because I don't disagree that 20 minutes of a spell might last into another encounter, especially in a dungeon, but dungeons generally increase the number of encounters in a day to go along with it.Sticking to divine souls for a moment here, that bloodline of sorcerer lacks the damage bonus to cantrips and spells (gaining an empowered healing metamagic ability instead) that you mentioned for draconic sorcs, and learns 16 spells known.  All artificers use spell prep and have access to any spell on their list and all subclasses give 10 bonus spells prepped.  The base artificer class plus shared bonus spells prepped all subclasses have is more spells known than divine souls know.  Artificers might have less slots on that basis, but they have more options on which to spend them for that versatility.  Now that I pointed this out, are you going to respond with my comparison of spells versatility between divine souls and artificers by pointing at the wizard spell mechanics as if that refutes this comparison?  ;-)It took me a minute to interpret this one.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> "Any cleric can do most of that as they get all the relevant spells."At least I think that was what was intended.  My first thought was "who's Eric?" and "to what ability is mist referencing?" ;-)There are 22 spells they share and both have spell options the other does not, that's including cantrips, and that's before adding subclass spells when both always gain subclass spells.  There are 95 artificer spells and 119 cleric spells in the PHB, XGtE, and TCoE.  Unless my count is off, anyway, but the point is both classes have a lot of spell not available to the other.In addition to spells not on the cleric list, all artificers have tool expertise, flash of genius, and infusions.  In all this discussion the focus keeps coming back to damage but that's not the primary role of the artificer class.  Artificers do a bit of everything and support the party with all the tools at their disposal, not just spells.Here are some useful infusion options available from 2nd level on that clerics are not replicating.<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Armor of Magical Strength</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Enhanced Arcane Focus</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Enhanced Defense</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Enhanced Weapon</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Homunculus Servant</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Mind Sharpener</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Repeating Shot</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Replicate Bag of Holding</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Replicate Cap of Water Breathing</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Replicate Darkshard Amulet</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Replicate Everbright Lantern</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Replicate Feather Token</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Replicate Goggle of Night</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Replicate Hat of Wizardry</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Replicate Lantern of Tracking</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Replicate Masquerade Tattoo</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Replicate Rope of Climbing</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Replicate Perfume of Bewitching</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Replicate Ruby of the War Mage</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Replicate Spellwrought Tattoo</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Replicate Wand of Secrets</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Returning Weapon</li> </ul>At 6th level add:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Boots of the Winding Path</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Radiant Weapon</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Replicate Cloak of Elvenkind</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Replicate Cloak of the Manta Ray</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Replicate Eyes of Charming</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Replicate Gloves of Thievery</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Replicate Lantern of Revealing</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Repulsion Shield</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Resistant Armor</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spell-Refueling Ring</li> </ul>There is a lot of versatility in those items, and many more that can be replicated.  If the entire party has magic armor and weapons there's plenty to work with after that.  The hard part is narrowing it down a bit so taking weapons and armor off the list opens up other items the party likely doesn't have.Those don't require spell slot or concentration, they last a multiple times or long periods of time or are a permanent effect.  Many of those give advantages or bonuses to checks.I do not find that clerics can do most of what artificers can.</blockquote>

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