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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 8383563" data-attributes="member: 6750235">In order:<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">The majority of the abilities listed are in the first two tiers.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">Tool use benefits are better than no tool use benefits.  The infusions that enhance skill use beat the skill use examples you were giving, and can also add flash of genius.  Tool expertise is one of multiple tools to enhance checks.  Ignoring the full suite of abilities doesn't prove your point.  In what way are artificers really behind the ball in skill use compared to most characters?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">I gave an argument refuting "only half casters" number of spell slots earlier.  Number of spell slots is misleading because the argument you gave was using them up at an alarming rate on the cleric while the artificer examples were using infusions and long-lasting low level slots in comparison in my examples.  It doesn't matter if a full caster has 1.5 times the spell slots if they use them up twice as fast (loose numbers for easy illustration).  Spell slot economy is a thing too.  ;-)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">What conditions would those be to which you refer?</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">All classes get "some class features".  Using "opportunity cost" as a buzzword doesn't demonstrate your point.  It's also a reversible point of view because not taking the artificer class costs the opportunity to provide infusions.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">All classes need to either pick up an option for using the bonus action or choose how to use it.  Having good bonus bonus actions that the subclasses want to use in order to create that "opportunity cost" is not con to the subclass.  If that were the case then crossbow expert would suck because the bonus action creates an opportunity cost preventing the PC from wanting to use other bonus actions.</li> </ol>That's exactly it.  Artificers can do a lot at a reasonable level.Sure, if clerics had infusions.Relative to higher ended options.That comment looks like they weren't the powergamers you present based on my own experience with the classes.Sold as by whom?  And you haven't demonstrated that lack of being good at combat or support.   I pointed out that artillerists were popping out standard cantrip damage with bonus damage on top from subclass and can guarantee enhanced arcane focus for accuracy, plus spend a bonus action for damage that starts at 2d8 and increases to 6d8, plus spend concentration on an additional DOT spell just like a cleric.In that same example I pointed out that the cleric is burning a 2nd-level slot that lasts a minute and a 3rd-level slot that lasts ten minutes.  The artillerist is burning a 1st-level slot that last an hour and a 1st-level slot that lasts up to a minute.Most casters would give a lot to have a bonus action attack like the cannons for the cheap slot cost, long duration, and no concentration.  I'm not seeing cannons as poor combat or poor support before looking at other options.By whom?  Appeal to the masses isn't a valid argument.Your example required your clerics to be using slots almost exclusively for damage, the damage the rogues and clerics were doing would require context, and that's a comparison to rogues at your table with clerics at your table.  It's anecdotal at best and lacks context on the why and how.In game your cleric, fighter, or paladin dies and that kicks your dpr in the love spuds.  If the pet soaks up damage that the artificer doesn't take that's a pro, not a con.  The combined hp totals exceeds the other classes in question.But if a pet dies, DPR goes down and doesn't stop.  If the cleric, paladin, or fighter drop so does their DPR.As I pointed out earlier, mending between encounters is almost cost free for artificer pets.  PC's not so much.Level high level is good to artificers.  The spell storing item is exceptionally good for things other than damage and that's why Zard will refute it by claiming he doesn't play higher levels.Attuning extra magic items is good.  2 cannons that do 3d8 each of force or fire damage (when not doing temp hp) for no concentration on a bonus action for a 1st level slot that last an hour is good.  The can also be AoE detonated by choice and grant 50% cover to anyone in an aura around them while dealing damage or giving thp.I do.  I don't see them doing the same damage some of the high end damage dealers and that's not the same thing.  ;-)The issue with the thp is they only matter if the party is taking damage every round, and if another good source of thp is available then the thp redundancy issue comes into play.The options for bonus damage or thp make them more versatile and a tool, and artillerists are not hurting for damage using them that way.</blockquote>

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