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Message: <blockquote data-quote="doctorbadwolf" data-source="post: 8391482" data-attributes="member: 6704184">And dying if someone makes them do a con save vs high damage, or just...rolls high. BSs are really fun, but to keep them alive in the front lines generally requires help from the team or multi-classing.Okay. That's plenty to eat a decent chunk of even a beefy enemy's HP every round, and then enemies have advantage on attacks against the Barbarian. Let the Bladesinger never get hit by casting shield or absorb elements every round. Great! My "I like to challenge my PCs" grin gets wider with every spell slot spent staying alive in a situation they could have just played a beefier Gish to survive in. Gonna be fun watching them twitch when the non-combat parts of the adventure set up choice after choice where they really want to cast spells, followed by another tough fight. Meanwhile, the Barbarian has spent a few HD and a Rage when that second fight starts.No more than most melee characters. If the team is facing a really tough enemy that hits a lot for solid damage, the Barbarian can put a shield on. But also I've never seen a Barbarian with low AC.Everyone has to make action economy decisions. This doesn't particularly change anything about the comparison.That is white room math that doesn't actually reflect the game at the table. Shield doesn't have an HP value, even at a given tier. Just the assumption of such a tiny CR range for a tier of leveling makes the math next to useless for anything but broad comparative math to understand how the system generally works. It doesn't actually tell you what will happen at the table. But really, that CR range. I just....dude, no. Everything from CR 1 or even lower, to CR 10 or even higher, depending on party composition, numbers, skill level, campaign style (in some campaigns, I will throw somewhere from most to more than the recommended daily XP budget into 1-2 fights, while in others I'll spread it over 3-5 fights, but in all of them the party is going to have to use resources outside of combat), magic items (in a high magic item campaign like my current Eberron campaign, I have to put most of the daily xp budget into one fight, with some backup options to turn the heat up, in order to actually challenge the 6 PC party), and other factors. In some fights, the Bladesinger will have an easier time using their resources offensively and standing up in melee, while in others they're gonna get hit or have to use shield any time my behir rolls a 10, so...they're gonna let the fighter or Barbarian stand in front of it and keep it's attention. Why woudln't they? To prove a point? They gonna burn through half their slots in one fight without doing anything to anyone with them to prove a point? They can literally still be a swashbuckling swordmaster without tanking.LOL yikes. You playing a different game, or what?LOLOL the Barbarian with a greatsword with reckless attack is also very effective, and the polearm barbarian would rather have a paladin or fighter keeping the enemy off him. Of course, the bladesinger probably has 10 or 12 strength, so all the enemy has to do is shove him.Human with warcaster is pretty rarified to use to try to prove a general point. Most players don't even take feats until their 3rd ASI or later, if at all. Making enemies care is...one of the primary pillars of tanking. It's absolutely central to the strategy. That's why people complain that there is was basically no tanking except for sword and board battlemasters and polearm+sentinel builds in the PHB, and even they are so damn limited by having only one reaction. It's damn hard to set up a situation where it sucks for the enemy to attack someone other than you, or punish them for it (more than once per round).Yes, making the Barbarian the better tank. Because the Barbarian will most likely survive that, and healing on the Barbarian is effectively doubled when they're raging.LOL squishier strikers or controllers like barbarians. Oof. A tank does basically 3 things. <ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Get physically in the way, and stay there</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Make themselves a better target than other party members</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Make themselves "sticky" or otherwise difficult to get around or ignore</li> </ul>The best games for playing a tank are ones that have mechanics that let you create lose/lose scenarios for enemies, where attacking you and staying put is the least terrible choice out of terrible choices for most enemies in a given fight. 5e is definitely not a great game for playing a tank, though later subclasses for the tank-friendly classes have helped a bit.This is simply false. High AC is a severely limited way to tank. Low HP tanks are very difficult to make effective compared to high HP tanks with even moderately high AC, like the average barbarian.</blockquote>

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