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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Guilt Puppy" data-source="post: 830949" data-attributes="member: 6521">IME this starts to happen around 8th level -- by which point the monk's other abilities (including skills) are good enough that they should have other tactics in combat. They will need some good magic items by this point to keep their AB up (Gloves of Dex are superb for a Monk with Weapon Finesse), and at higher levels can be better off switching to magical weapons -- so you might want to Finesse the Kama rather than the Unarmed Strike.This is ultimately true -- their weapon is not going to be their most-invested magic item generally, and Strength usually takes third or fourth banana to their other important stats.Again, this doesn't become a significant disparity until higher levels... The damage difference is really first substantial around sixth level, IME, but doesn't fall under the "totally useless" category until after level 10 (when investment in magic items become a bigger factor, disparity in feats and such starts to show more, et cetera.)Coincidentally, it's around this time that arcane casters replace tanks as the biggest threat to a party's survival -- and it doesn't take a lot of damage to take out an arcane caster, you just have to be able to get to them... Monks can do this like no other, in many different ways. While the monk is bashing the Wizard's brains out, the Fighter is still toe-to-toeing it with the annoying Iron Golem.Also one less than a fighter with an 18 Dex and full plate... Or an 18 Dex and a Chain Shirt (although shields do help them out)... Just to point that out. However, monks get the benefit of no AC penalty, pretty much ever (what monk needs enough gear that they ever get encumbered?), and the price of magical enhancements compares pretty readily with those other characters would get (Bracers of Armor cost as much as Enhancement bonuses, all characters end up getting stat-boosters somewhere, and for the monk those will be their multi-purpose AC stats, et cetera)... IME their AC usually does keep up with the rest of the party (usually it's second only to the tank, and sometimes it's better), even as levels progress. Plus, their touch AC stays consistently high as well -- Harm, anyone?This is probably their most legitimate "weakness" (of course, weakness all depends on what you're comparing it to... I'm assuming you're trying to compare them to some notion of a useful support fighter, although in most cases you are comparing them to tanks...)Against opponents with upper-end DR (that is to say, the highest DR you should be expected to beat at a given level), then yes, monks do falter. Okay: The save DC for stunning fist is about as high as the save DC for the highest-level spell a Sorceror can cast (probably a little lower, accounting for higher Cha than Wis, and options like Spell Focus.) While it does require an attack to hit, again, monks aren't as bad at hitting IME as you make them out to be (considering they can move to flank easily, et cetera...)However, two big problems with your Color Spray analogy: Stunning Fist is once per level per day. That's a lot of attempts. You can pretty much throw those around at higher level, when you're facing characters you expect to be less able to resist (ie the Wizard, not the big tank that you should never be fighting in the first place). You know how nice a stunned Wizard is at higher-levels? It's a blessing -- two less disintegrates!Second problem: Monks are not Wizards. While doing that sort of stuff is the Wizards schtick, monks have a whole ton of other abilities.A very similar argument could be made regarding any of the monks special abilities (as they're generally similar to arcane abilities) -- Wizards are better at that sort of stuff, but at the sacrifice of hit points, attacks, saves, and all the other things you listed above.Any one thing a monk does, there's probably another class or character type that can do better. That's because they're a class about versatility... The same can and has been said about the Bard (which IMO is an even more severe example of this.) The monks only really fall behind, as a whole, if their abilities start becoming useless instead of not as good -- and I just haven't seen this happen, so long as a monk doesn't try to act like a Fighter, or like Wizard for that matter.How is not getting attacked a problem?Really, you've hit upon yet another example of the monk's true strong point: Survivability. They have awesome saves, pretty good hit points (compared to all classes, not just fighter-types), pretty good AC, plus a dab of SR here, some Still Mind there, et cetera... Plus it's damn near impossible to create a situation which neuters monks -- their abilities are applicable to IMO the widest variety of circumstances in the game.Monks appeal to a certain kind of player -- the one who doesn't mind giving up some time in the spotlight if it means they always get to be on stage somewhere. Bard's another flavor to this, as is Ranger to a certain degree... But I think it's pretty clear to anyone, monks are just way cooler <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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