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<blockquote data-quote="Gizzard" data-source="post: 831408" data-attributes="member: 527">Oh no, no angry response.&nbsp; I mean this thread has come and gone 100 times before and hopefully I never was angry about it.&nbsp; Hopefully everyones experience is valid, and these days I just like to point out that people play different styles and those different styles have a big effect on how good your Monk is going to be.&nbsp; So:&nbsp;Yes, it applies to everyone.&nbsp; No extra prestige classes, no Ki Straps, no splatbook feats or magic items.&nbsp; The Barbarian doesnt need Extra Rage to deal out tons of damage, the Wizard doesnt need Greater Spell Penetration - these classes are inherently reasonable on the power-scale.&nbsp; At low levels (level 6 and below) the Monk is the hands-down favorite for &quot;weakest class&quot; because he cant quite fight and his skills arent generally useful enough for the rest of the party to notice.&nbsp; He doesnt have much of a role.Thats why threads like &quot;Why are Monks useless?&quot; get started.&nbsp;Well, even DR5 is &quot;high DR&quot; to a Monk, who is doing d8+STR with his unarmed attacks.&nbsp; I've faced my share of DR5 monsters by level 6, running through the standard WotC module series.&nbsp; DR5 is a bit of a shock to all low level characters, but the Monk might as well just give up on ever doing damage in combat, while the Barbarian and TWF Fighter are much more likely to have a +1 weapon or at least a Bastard Sword (d10+STR+2).&nbsp;&nbsp; Now, by &quot;low-magic world&quot; I only mean that theres no Olde Corner Magic Shoppe which just happens to have everything in the DMG in stock.&nbsp; You either find items, you trade items, or you find someone to have items commissioned.&nbsp; As for my friends making Boots for 6000gp for me, the Sorcerer hasnt taken Craft Wonderous yet.&nbsp; And if he did, he'd be Crafting Wonderous for himself first.&nbsp; And, after that, I think he'd be tempted to give the Barbarian or TWF Fighter the Boots anyway.&nbsp; &quot;Yeah, sure, but if I make them for the Barbarian, he moves 80' and does a lot of damage when he hits.&nbsp; Not like you, Monk.&quot;&nbsp;Well, I'm not sure what an &quot;impossible problem&quot; might be with respect to vision - but if you are doing a dungeon crawl and can see without your light then you esentially have Darkvision.&nbsp; Monks are actually a bit better out of the dungeon, where their fast movement and ability to fight without weapons are premium abilities.&nbsp; Again, this is a matter of campaign style.&nbsp; But its something to be aware of - if you are dungeon crawling and planning on being a scout make sure to be a Half-Orc or otherwise have Darkvision.&nbsp; I think scout is a great role for a Monk, its just that the character races don't line up very well with the class.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Gizzard, post: 831408, member: 527"] Oh no, no angry response. I mean this thread has come and gone 100 times before and hopefully I never was angry about it. Hopefully everyones experience is valid, and these days I just like to point out that people play different styles and those different styles have a big effect on how good your Monk is going to be. So: Yes, it applies to everyone. No extra prestige classes, no Ki Straps, no splatbook feats or magic items. The Barbarian doesnt need Extra Rage to deal out tons of damage, the Wizard doesnt need Greater Spell Penetration - these classes are inherently reasonable on the power-scale. At low levels (level 6 and below) the Monk is the hands-down favorite for "weakest class" because he cant quite fight and his skills arent generally useful enough for the rest of the party to notice. He doesnt have much of a role. Thats why threads like "Why are Monks useless?" get started. Well, even DR5 is "high DR" to a Monk, who is doing d8+STR with his unarmed attacks. I've faced my share of DR5 monsters by level 6, running through the standard WotC module series. DR5 is a bit of a shock to all low level characters, but the Monk might as well just give up on ever doing damage in combat, while the Barbarian and TWF Fighter are much more likely to have a +1 weapon or at least a Bastard Sword (d10+STR+2). Now, by "low-magic world" I only mean that theres no Olde Corner Magic Shoppe which just happens to have everything in the DMG in stock. You either find items, you trade items, or you find someone to have items commissioned. As for my friends making Boots for 6000gp for me, the Sorcerer hasnt taken Craft Wonderous yet. And if he did, he'd be Crafting Wonderous for himself first. And, after that, I think he'd be tempted to give the Barbarian or TWF Fighter the Boots anyway. "Yeah, sure, but if I make them for the Barbarian, he moves 80' and does a lot of damage when he hits. Not like you, Monk." Well, I'm not sure what an "impossible problem" might be with respect to vision - but if you are doing a dungeon crawl and can see without your light then you esentially have Darkvision. Monks are actually a bit better out of the dungeon, where their fast movement and ability to fight without weapons are premium abilities. Again, this is a matter of campaign style. But its something to be aware of - if you are dungeon crawling and planning on being a scout make sure to be a Half-Orc or otherwise have Darkvision. I think scout is a great role for a Monk, its just that the character races don't line up very well with the class. [/QUOTE]

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