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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Bauglir" data-source="post: 831502" data-attributes="member: 6982">I've seen it happen as early as third level.  The slow BAB is only made worse by the necessity to spread stats so thinly as a monk. if the wizard has boosted his AC, the monk won't be bashing anything, thanks to that awful attack bonus  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />.Besides, not all enemies are parties of humanoids.  More often IME we encounter monsters.  And monsters that can't handle themselves in melee are rare. Even in this case the monk is STILL worse off - with 2 18's he can't match what the fighter can do with 1.Lets give the monk 16 dex, 16 wis, - that means their AC will be 16 + magic.  Now lets look at the typical platemailed offensive tank style fighter.  AC 19 + magic, and under a point buy system, lots of points left over to spend elsewhere, compared to our monk.   The monk will be pouring vast amounts of resources into every kind of AC they can get to keep alive, while the fighter will be getting a wealth of items that boost both their defensive and their offensive potential.  While the fighter is enhancing their strengths, the monk is always trying to buy off their weakness.Well what IS a support fighter? - specifically what do they do that a monk will be better suited to than another tank?Vs an Achaierai (CR 5) AC 20Fig 5 - 16 str, WF, WS +1 gsword - +10 (55%) to hit, avg dam 8.4Mnk 5 - 16 dex, wis, 14 str Wfin - +6 (35%) to hit, avg dam 2.6Flurry - +4/+4 (25%) avg dam 3.25Stunning fist save DC will be 10+2+3 = 15Achaierai has Fort +7 - 35% chance of failingSo altogether the stunning fist has a 12.25% success rate vs this monster of even CR.  Now there are SOME monsters that the monk is better suited to handle, but these are not common.As for moving to flank, that's not too difficult for any fighting class.  Rogues tumble into position, fighters rumble about with mobility-boosted AC.  I don't see the monk as having any kind of enhanced access to flanking.The monk would have an even harder time affecting a high level wizard worth his salt, who has access to spells like improved invisibility, dimension door, fly, displacement (and of course all the AC buffs). Agreed, but then so do wizards...My point is - whatever a monk does, another class always does it much better, so a lot of the monk's versitility is wasted in a party where the other members are better suited to the various tasks the monk may be (barely) capable of.Read below <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Agreed, but of what worth is it to the rest of the party?  The monk can survive, but if he can't protect the rest of his party what use is that?  Tanks can effectively protect spellcasters because enemies will respect the tanks' capability to hurt them, and would think twice about ignoring them to go after the casters.  Not so the monk.  Similarly, casters can protect the tanks with buffs, defensive spells, and heals.This is true <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />The cynic in me suggests this is why people persist in claiming the class is any good <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Anyway it's 2AM and I'm v tired and this post is probably full of errors, so I'm off to bed.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Edit: See - found one already</blockquote>

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