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Message: <blockquote data-quote="WizarDru" data-source="post: 834823" data-attributes="member: 151">Not core?  How do you figure?  It's a core spell, as is manufacturing a ring.  It isn't listed in the DMG, true, but neither is every other single spell that could be put into a potion, ring, staff or wand.  That doesn't make them non-core.  The core adventure path series only uses material from the core books, and you'll find a ring of magic fang appears at least twice...and matches the exact calculations the DMG provides.  However, if that bothers you, then go with the fact that Gauntlets can be affected by Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon, according to the Sage and FAQ, specifically in reference to monks.I'm not arguing that he isn't.  What I am arguing is that it's too situational to make that call.  You're making the assumption that the monk is working alone, and I'm not.  I'm assuming buffs being in operation, and team tactics working.  The monk excels in a team environment.  They will still lag behind the front-line fighters, but some spells and effects contribute to everyone's chance of success that becomes more valuable to the people on the lower end of the scale than the higher.  Spells like Bless, a bard's Inspire Courage, Cat's Grace, Bull's strength, and so on.You asked earlier what a support fighter was (as opposed to a front-line fighter), and I'll tell you how I view them:  characters who engage in melee but are not expected or likely to be the ones to bring them down by damage.  They support the main fighters with flanks, attacks to aid and a host of special abilities.  They throw monkey-wrenches into the BBEG's machine.  A monk will not outdamage a fighter or barbarian, ever.  Monks and rogues tend to pull tricks out of their hats that stymie their opponents...when they work.  A rogue without a partner to flank has a much lower chance to ever use sneak-attack.  A wizard without defenders will be slaughtered.  A fighter without magical support or healing is doomed.Limited in focus, yes.  But so is the fighter, in that regard.There isn't an 'OA' monk.  The only difference is they are allowed to freely multiclass without penalty (there are no ex-monks) and they have access to more feats that are more monk-specific or monk-friendly.  Some of which have been errataed to be more balanced.  The power-level of OA is about the same as, perhaps even slightly lower than, core D&D (feats like the unerattaed Falling Star Strike, notwithstanding).I don't have to think any up, I've run some of them.  For example: Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil:  Warning: SPOILER HERE!At the second entrance to the crater ridge mines, there is a room with a sniper hanging suspended from a ceiling in front of the main gate.  His job is to defend the gate, should it be penetrated, and shoot thirty feet below at anyone entering the area.  With 9/10s cover, and no easy way up to him, he's a nasty problem for a party to deal with...especially if they're trying to remain stealthy.  In my game, I had two snipers there, since I had six players.  It was the monk and the rogue who made a beeline up there and eliminated them, not the barbarian, the wizard or the cleric.  Could the wizard have used a magic missle?  Sure...but for a pair of low-level human guards, that'd have been a waste...especially since a pair of classed Ogres and some gargoyles were just ahead.Another example:  Earlier in RtToEE, the party is searching the (supposedly) abandoned moathouse.  In the dungeon, they first encounter some ghouls.  Who makes the saves not to be paralyzed, and avoids a TPK?  The monk.  The barbarian killing machine sits like a lamb for the slaughter.  A little later, same dungeon:  the party rounds a corner, and encounters two evil clerics, one of whom is a troglydyte.  The barbarian both loses STR to the stench, and then gets blinded and lost in a obscurring mist.  It's the monk who tumbles through, causing them to retreat...and then uses the much-maligned stunning fist to paralyze the trog (who is wearing full-plate and on a slippery floor), who falls precariously to his doom into a hole leading into a temple to Tharizdun. END OF SPOILER!I could cite other examples from other modules, but the point is this:  depending on the players, the situation and the style of the game, the monk is just fine, IMHO.  My perception is that more people would not have a problem with the monk, if they perceived him as less Bruce Lee and more Yuen Bao.  Less 'Game of Death' and more 'Drunken Master', if you will.  I'm not countering your statistics, because they seem spot on...I'm merely saying that your perception of the monk's effectiveness runs counter to my experiences, and that perhaps that's a reflection of game style.</blockquote>

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