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<blockquote data-quote="Victim" data-source="post: 838487" data-attributes="member: 78">Diamond Body and Soul are good.&nbsp; Quivering Palm is a very crappy save or die spell.&nbsp; The target must have fewer HD than the monk.&nbsp; Also, Quivering Palm has much the same problems as stunning fist in that the monk needs to hit and the target needs to fail a save.&nbsp; I'm not impressed with high level class abilities that duplicate generally low level spell effects.&nbsp; They can usually duplicated with items that high level characters can afford.&nbsp; &quot;Look my monk got Abundant Step!&nbsp; This makes him not being able to fight.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;Hey, my fighter called dibs on that cape.&nbsp; It's cape of the mountebank.&nbsp; Sweet.&nbsp; Now I can D-Door 1/day too.&quot;&nbsp; While a monk is surviveable, since it generally comes at the expense of offensive ability, the monk probably contributes to overall party fatalities.&nbsp; If you replace the monk with a character that actually does something, in most cases the group will be better off.&nbsp; However, a monk works nicely with more covert approaches.&nbsp; First, he doesn't need any weapons.&nbsp; Monks also have Diplomacy, Perform, and stealth skills, along with a decent number of skill points.&nbsp; They don't fight that much worse than rogues, and stunning fist has a nice syngery with sneak attack.With a greater combat focus, I actually think that weapon finess should be avoided.&nbsp; Reliance on dex means that the monk further emphasizes defense.&nbsp; Monks generally have pretty random damage since they get bigger dice but don't get much in the way of magic bonuses.&nbsp; d20+5 isn't really that much.&nbsp; By going STR + WIS, instead of DEX +WIS, the monk will hit as often or more than the finess monk (he saves a feat, maybe gets focus instead of finess) and actually does noticeable damage.&nbsp; Defense does suffer a bit, though, so you'll probably need a good cleric around.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Victim, post: 838487, member: 78"] Diamond Body and Soul are good. Quivering Palm is a very crappy save or die spell. The target must have fewer HD than the monk. Also, Quivering Palm has much the same problems as stunning fist in that the monk needs to hit and the target needs to fail a save. I'm not impressed with high level class abilities that duplicate generally low level spell effects. They can usually duplicated with items that high level characters can afford. "Look my monk got Abundant Step! This makes him not being able to fight." "Hey, my fighter called dibs on that cape. It's cape of the mountebank. Sweet. Now I can D-Door 1/day too." While a monk is surviveable, since it generally comes at the expense of offensive ability, the monk probably contributes to overall party fatalities. If you replace the monk with a character that actually does something, in most cases the group will be better off. However, a monk works nicely with more covert approaches. First, he doesn't need any weapons. Monks also have Diplomacy, Perform, and stealth skills, along with a decent number of skill points. They don't fight that much worse than rogues, and stunning fist has a nice syngery with sneak attack. With a greater combat focus, I actually think that weapon finess should be avoided. Reliance on dex means that the monk further emphasizes defense. Monks generally have pretty random damage since they get bigger dice but don't get much in the way of magic bonuses. d20+5 isn't really that much. By going STR + WIS, instead of DEX +WIS, the monk will hit as often or more than the finess monk (he saves a feat, maybe gets focus instead of finess) and actually does noticeable damage. Defense does suffer a bit, though, so you'll probably need a good cleric around. [/QUOTE]

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