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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DracoSuave" data-source="post: 5445769" data-attributes="member: 71571">And of those, 'creature' does not exclude you from the power.  The existance of other types does not change this VERY simple concept.  A creature means, 'A creature by any means' and then goes on to explain that enemy or ally status does not affect the ability to be targetted by it.  What it DOES NOT say is that you cannot be targetted by it because you are excepted from being a creature for this purpose.It calls out 'creature by any means', you qualify under that, nothing disqualifies you, so after this point, it doesn't matter what entries can be written here be they 'enemy', 'ally', or even 'five eyed walrus from the Far Plane.'Your logic has a problem.  You yourself claim that the rules for targetting cannot have an exception unless it is noted specifically.THE FOLLOWING DO NOT EXIST IN THE RULES:'You can only target allies or enemies.'  This rule does not exist.'When refering to a creature of any sort, you are not considered a creature for this purpose.'  This rule also does not exist.Without those rules, a power does NOT have to include an exception to target you.  All the power needs to target you is some description of a class that includes you, or to refer to you directly.There are five words that refer to a class you belong to.  'A creature of any sort.'  There are zero words that make you an exception to that.That is how specific vs general works.  The word 'Whether' does not imply the Exclusive Or relationship.  It simply means that the antecedent may or may not contain the qualities that follow.  Contrast with either, which DOES explicitly enforce an Exclusive Or relationship.For it to mean what you claim, it would have to say '...a creature of any sort, and either an enemy or an ally.'  It does not.  It says '...a creature of any sort, whether it is an enemy or an ally....'The word 'whether' does not mean what you think it means.Irrelevant.  All that is relevant is the following:Does there exist text that says that 'a creature of any sort' does not include you?What you have provided is not an exception.We don't care how you resolve Personal 'attack-type' powers.  That's not relevant to the task at hand.  We don't care how you resolve powers that include 'you' as a target.  That's also not relevant to the task at hand.We care about whether or not 'creature' excludes you, and what you have yet to do is provide a single sentance that says it must. Text that says it does:  Exists.Text that says it does not:  Does not exist.If you want to look at semantics, you have to examine what actually exists.'A melee power usually targets one or more targets within its range'That's all that there is to say on it.  Being zero squares away from the origin square of a power does put you in range of that power, and nothing in the melee entry makes an exception to that.Which is irrelevant to the question.  If you are incapable of taking actions, you might not be able to attack yourself.  However, if the attack is not taken as an action, then you are not prohibited to attack yourself.For the sake of this discussion, in its context (an individual compelled to attack itself with a power) it's assumed the basic ability to take actions is in effect.Line of effect requires you be able to trace an unbroken line between one of your corners and any corner of the target.Draw a square.Now draw an X in the square like you're scoring a strike.You'll now notice that every corner of your square is connected to every other corner of your square with unbroken line of effect.Melee is specific enough to make yourself the origin square.And your logic is circular.  'You cannot target yourself because you are not the target' is bad.Wrong.  For a melee attack, the origin square is the attacker.  The only attacks off the top of my head that don't use the attacker as the origin square are Area attack-type powers, and Close bursts.You've yet to even present the thesis the mechanism does not exist.  The problem here is you've inferred that you cannot target yourself, and used that as the basis of an argument that you cannot target yourself.What you have yet to do is actually prove you cannot target yourself.  So let's start again.Ahem.Creature means '...a creature of any sort...'  No one is arguing that.Now please present the text that then makes it so that only allies and enemies are included in this clause.  And the clause after one indicates that enemy and ally status are irrelevant.  As an example:'Member of this club can come to my party, whether they are of the Montague family, or the Capulets.'You wish to speak of semantics... please tell me.  Does this statement mean that ONLY Montagues and Capulets can come to my party?  Or does it mean that I don't CARE if they are Montagues or Capulets so long as they fit the qualifying 'member of this club' clause?More over, the text does not even try to be exclusionary.'The most common targets are creatures, enemies, and allies.' is not the same statement as 'You can target creatures, enemies, or allies' and CERTAINLY not the same statement as 'You can ONLY target creatures, enemies, or allies.'You've taken the statement 'The most common entry here are these three things' and used that to 'logically' infer that if you do not have the second, or third quality in that list, you therefore cannot have the first.  This is a complete bastardization of the rule as it is written.  The basic fundamental premise of your argument is incorrect, and is not supported by the rules.  Arguments based on that premise are invalid.</blockquote>

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