Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="DracoSuave" data-source="post: 5446184" data-attributes="member: 71571">Stop.What you need to explain is how you are an ally or enemy for the purpose of Area effects, but not for Melee effects...That.  Rule.  Does.  Not.  Exist.That.  Rule.  Does.  Not.  Exist.Because it isn't.1)  Impersonal you, and royal we.  Artifacts of the language sometimes used in English during debates.  Please don't take them personally, they are not ad hominems.2)  You haven't debunked anything.  You've invented rules (Origin squares target things!?!) and called that a debunk.However, origin square is not relevent to determining allies, or enemies, or what a creature is.Neither is adjacency for that matter.1)  You claim melee 1 can only hit adjacent creatures2)  You claim it cannot attack your space3)  You claim your space is considered adjacentErgo, you are inferring that a rule exists claiming melee 1 cannot attack your space, however, you have not suppled said rule, so you have not supported your case.However, those cases are specific instances that do not apply to this particular context of:  Using a power to make bobby hit himself.No, it is trivial because it is so easy to do that it shouldn't require any sort of example.With two adjacent creatures, there are four corners per creature (assuming Medium creatures).  Any corner can be used as the source or the destination for a line-of-effect.  The term I used is 'potential lines-of-effect.'From Monster A, the potential lines-of-effect are:A1->B1, A1->B2, A1->B3, A1->B4, A2->B1, A2->B2, A2->B3, A2->B4, A3->B1, A3->B2, A3->B3, A3->B4, A4->B1, A4->B2, A4->B3, A4->B4.That's 16 potential lines-of-effect.From Monster B, each one of those lines-of-effect are reversed.That's 16 more potential lines-of-effect.16+16=32.Thirty-two is most definately the correct answer here.Stop.Enemy's and Ally's definitions are very clear:  "Enemy" means a foe of your character, and "ally" refers to your character's companions in combat.That is verbatim from the rules compendium.  If what you say is true, and that creatures must be enemies or allies...  and that Scorching Burst can hit you because of the origin square issue... Then are you claiming that either you are a foe to the origin square of your power, OR that you are the origin square's companion in combat?Are you assigning some sort of combat faction to the origin square, so that it has motivation, and can actually pick a side!?!That's nonsense.  Origin squares don't have allies, or enemies.NOW it is appropriate to toss in an ad hominem:  How can you be sure that creature excludes or includes or in any way requires allies or enemies, when you obviously do not understand what 'ally' or 'enemy' actually means?  You understand but you do not comprehend.There's no irony here.  You are, in specific cases, speaking nonsense.  In this case, by insisting that origin squares are at all relevent to any discussion of an enemy or ally status... and that by moving the origin square it changes things so that things that target enemies or allies suddenly can change the candidates for those things.  That is utter nonsense, and I am under no obligation to attempt to understand nonsense... particularily nonsense that has absolutely zero rules support to back it up.Nothing supports this, I keep telling you.No, origin square and target are two different rules concepts... I never claimed that origin square and target were the same thing.  What I claim is that origin square and target are not mutually exclusive, and that's a different thing all together.You need more than that.  Except that enemy/ally status is not determined by the selection of an origin square.  They are as disconnected from each other as selecting your morning breakfast is to what is on my television.  They literally have NOTHING to do with each other.What you have yet to prove here... and I repeat this:That Creature EXPLICITLY excludes you.  You've proven that the term creature does not discriminate to enemy or ally status.  You've not proven that it discriminates against you.  For it to do so, you must include text that excludes you.  That text does not exist, no matter how much you post text that includes enemy or ally.AGAIN with the origin square.  This is the big misunderstanding:At no point have you proven, or given a single bit of evidence, to suggest that the origin square of a power cannot also contain its target.Furthermore, you've even admitted that in the case of Area powers, the origin square CAN contain its target, but what you have failed to do is indicate what rule excludes the origin square, nor what rule allows Area powers to be an exception to that rule.Nor can you; those rules do not exist.No one is discounting that you normally attack enemies one square away from you.  I'm not disputing that.  What I am stating is what a power normally does, and what it is allowed to do, are not the same thing entirely.Normally you attack the enemy beside you.  Rarely, you attack someone in your square.  The only thing you can't do is attack someone outside the range of the target.Personal powers have nothing to do with this argument; the existance of the Personal attack-type does not mean that other attack-types cannot attack your square.  Nothing in the Personal attack-type insinuates this, nor does anything in any attack-type state that they cannot affect you.The ONLY exception presented is Close burst.  That says it does not affect you.  NO other attack-type/range combination states this.</blockquote>

Verification