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<blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 7635611" data-attributes="member: 18">This thread made me laugh out loud because I saw an identical proposal in 1993, and the problems remain the same. That's 26 years ago for those keeping score at home.First off, I don't agree with the basic premise that D&amp;D models PCs with high INT, WIS or CHA badly. Specifically I don't agree that CHA has the same problem as INT and WIS. CHA is modeled as well in D&amp;D as STR, DEX or CON. People lump it in here out of misguided, ill-considered symmetry. If the other two &quot;mental&quot; stats have issues, this one also must. But it's simply not true. Players are no worse with a high CHA character than a high STR one. People overestimate what it can do, sure, but it simply doesn't have the same basic issue as INT/WIS. It is already fine even by the logic in the OP, and again, it's just a desire for symmetry that has people lumping it in. INT is rarely a major problem, too, given how IRL many very smart people are pretty foolish in many ways and simply don't know or consider certain things. The only time it seems to create a genuine problem is when a player dumpstats INT down to 8 or 6 or whatever and then refuses to RP it, instead acting like his character is as brilliant and knowledgeable and so on as his INT 14 or 16 previous character. But this isn't a problem with the system. This is a player refusing to RP, and no different to LG PCs who act like CN ones or a country bumpkin peasant by background who acts like Littlefinger from GoT (don't start). So really the only legitimate problem is Wisdom, because many players are um, unwise in how they play their PCs whilst their classes demand a high WIS score. Further it doesn't match fantasy fiction, not even D&amp;D based fiction, where plenty of religious characters are foolish or unwise. So I could see a case being made to replace WIS with something, whether Faith or Focus or whatever, anything that didn't measure actual wise-ness.CHA is a non-issue lumped in for symmetry and INT is merely a &quot;bad RP&quot; issue 99 times in 100, unlike WIS.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ruin Explorer, post: 7635611, member: 18"] This thread made me laugh out loud because I saw an identical proposal in 1993, and the problems remain the same. That's 26 years ago for those keeping score at home. First off, I don't agree with the basic premise that D&D models PCs with high INT, WIS or CHA badly. Specifically I don't agree that CHA has the same problem as INT and WIS. CHA is modeled as well in D&D as STR, DEX or CON. People lump it in here out of misguided, ill-considered symmetry. If the other two "mental" stats have issues, this one also must. But it's simply not true. Players are no worse with a high CHA character than a high STR one. People overestimate what it can do, sure, but it simply doesn't have the same basic issue as INT/WIS. It is already fine even by the logic in the OP, and again, it's just a desire for symmetry that has people lumping it in. INT is rarely a major problem, too, given how IRL many very smart people are pretty foolish in many ways and simply don't know or consider certain things. The only time it seems to create a genuine problem is when a player dumpstats INT down to 8 or 6 or whatever and then refuses to RP it, instead acting like his character is as brilliant and knowledgeable and so on as his INT 14 or 16 previous character. But this isn't a problem with the system. This is a player refusing to RP, and no different to LG PCs who act like CN ones or a country bumpkin peasant by background who acts like Littlefinger from GoT (don't start). So really the only legitimate problem is Wisdom, because many players are um, unwise in how they play their PCs whilst their classes demand a high WIS score. Further it doesn't match fantasy fiction, not even D&D based fiction, where plenty of religious characters are foolish or unwise. So I could see a case being made to replace WIS with something, whether Faith or Focus or whatever, anything that didn't measure actual wise-ness. CHA is a non-issue lumped in for symmetry and INT is merely a "bad RP" issue 99 times in 100, unlike WIS. [/QUOTE]

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