Doing it wrong Part 1: Taking the dragon out of the dungeon

[Meatboy]

OK, wow this intro is probably harder to write than the actual article. Anyway here goes...

First off this is not a troll. I have probably had far too much time on my hands to mull this over but for the past few weeks I have been pondering DnD, specifically what makes Dungeons and Dragons... well Dungeons and Dragons. A lot of other topics have been mixed up in this too, things like edition wars, balance and what makes something a role playing game.
So I am just going to throw it out there. I am not sure that DnD is a roleplaying game. Let me lay it out and then everyone can lay into me.

A long time ago (40 years or so) in a basement far, far away (far from me anyway) two guys named Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson made a little game. Based off of wargames they crafted a game that no one had seen before. It centered around a small group of warriors and wizards who wandered around a series of interconnected rooms kicking in doors, killing things and taking their stuff... and dying... often.
It wasn't a perfect game but it did fulfill its main ideas quite well. The thing I have problems reconciling is that this is not the game I play. When I sit down and say to my friends "Let's play DnD." That is not the game I am talking about.

I'm not sure where things changed. I will hazard a guess that at some point the players got attatched to their characters. After countless dead characters you start to identify with the ones that you put the most time into. (anyone who has played hardcore mode on Diablo, Torchlight or similar games knows what I'm talking about.)
Add to the that the fact that this is not the game I was promised, just look at the "What is Roleplaying?" section of the Player's Handbook, you get a spiel about imagination, stories, choice, villains and heroes. Appendix N is just as bad for fostering this idea by giving a list of stories that are in fact about heroes and villains and grand adventure and all sorts of things which make for terrific stories, but have a hard time being shoehorned into a game that takes place primarily in 5x5 foot corridors and 20x20 foot rooms and has the main characters dying all the time. Really to tell a good story you need to take the dragons, and most everything else, out of the dungeon.

I want to say that this doesn't mean DnD, as originally created anyway, is bad or anything I just think that we are going about it a little sideways. I think Gygax in essence made a very good fish ( in that it swims well, breathes underwater just fine and the like). The problem being is that for the last few decades the majority of players have been under the impression that they have a bird and are thus disappointed when they toss the poor thing out a window and lament that it doesn't fly that far.

It's not to say that you can't create the grand, sweeping epics, and advetures that you want to play with DnD. But the core rules and conceits of DnD, which haven't changed much through the years, don't lend themselves to this style of game. I feel that every edition of DnD has really been an attempt to rectify and clarify rules to make these kinds of games possible.
Early editions pretty much left this up to the DM, with mixed results obviously. Some DMs were great at this, they could make up stuff on the fly and everyone had fun. A lot of people however couldn't and so wanted "official" rules for all the corner cases they came up against (fairly difficult when you can do pretty much anything) but that hasn't stopped designers from trying. So we have ended up with an ever expanding set of "core" rules to help make our fish fly. And I think in the end they have been largely successful. But the grognard in me feels that maybe we are getting farther and farther away from what makes DnD, DnD. I guess by working on making it soar it's starting to taste less and less like fish...

Anyway just some semi random thoughts. Hopefully leads to some discussion.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Huh?

If I follow you, you're pointing out the difference in designing a more lethal vs. less lethal game, and what is intended by the game's creators vs. how the people play?

 

[JamesonCourage]

Well, I started with 3e, and it flew for me (though I don't play it now). Plus, I don't like fish (really, I don't). So, I'm okay with it, even if you're right, which I think people might / will debate. As always, play what you like

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I think the OP is complaining about changes in gaming culture, and the resulting mismatch between rules and player desires. (It could go both ways. You could have players who want old rules but are given newfangled rules instead, or players who want modern rules but are hobbled by old concepts that haven't vanished.)

However, this doesn't seem to about promoting discussion. I'm not even sure if the OP is in favor of older rules or newer ones; the OP seems contradictory.

 

[the Jester]

I think you're confusing "telling a story" with "roleplaying game".

They are not the same. In a Venn diagram sense, they overlap, but they are most emphatically not the same.

To many of us, "telling the story" is what you do after the game is over, in describing how the game turned out. The setup, the actual play of the game- those aren't "telling a story" to me. Those are "playing a game."

 

[ImperatorK]

First off this is not a troll.

That doesn't really convince me. To be honest I didn't even consider it until you mentioned it.

 

[Meatboy]

I'm not trying to complain or anything I am trying, unsuccessfully, to put into words an idea that over the years there has been a kind of disconnect between what people want from the game of dungeons and dragons and what we've been given to play around with. This disconnect over the years has given birth to a lot of the issues and complaints that keep popping up on the boards. I know that I have probably not articulated my thoughts well on this but I felt I needed to try to put this out there at least in some form or another. It might not be pretty but I found it at least thought provoking enough to have spent several days mulling it over and I thought I'd share.

 

[DEFCON 1]

What people have wanted from Dungeons & Dragons has changed over the years. More often than not, those people who have gone past D&D to try and enjoy other roleplaying games have discovered that there are many different ways to skin a cat... many of which can be faster, more effective, and indeed even more fun that what was originally produced back in '75. It's not surprising in the least that a large swathe of players have adopted those self-same styles and incorporated them into D&D... up to and including those writers and designers who have gone on to create each subsequent new edition.

Driving did not and does not end at the Model T. The cars of today have many things that are superior to it. But that's not to say we still can't love the ingenuity of the Model T, admire what it accomplished, and indeed love the feeling of playing it. But only the hardest of hardcore car enthusiast would put driving their Model T over and above any other car in the world today. The other 99.9% of drivers can admit that cars did in fact change and evolve, more often than not for the better. And there's nothing wrong with both sides appreciating what they have.

 

[RUMBLETiGER]

Oh... So the game no longer is designed to reflect how players want to play.

First off, I play 3.x, so I can only answer from that perspective.

I don't think I feel the same way. Take the CR ratings (imperfect as it is, I know, but bare with me), a party fighting at a CR appropriate for them has a good chance to survive the encounter. DMs have the flexibility to tailor the difficulty to what the players want. Players have tons of options for designing a PC. Healthy dialogue between DM and players out of game about expectations provide them all with the ability to craft a game, from the multitude of challenging choices, they want to make.

I feel, because of the incredible amount of 3.x material out there, that anything the players and DM want, can be put together within the game design.

 

[Meatboy]

Oh... So the game no longer is designed to reflect how players want to play.
QUOTE]

Actually I must have really been unclear in my writing, apologies. But I really wanted to say the opposite of this. In fact I think today more than ever the design of the game allows players to play what they want. Orginally I don't think this was the case, at least not easily.