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Doing it wrong Part 1: Taking the dragon out of the dungeon
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<blockquote data-quote="Meatboy" data-source="post: 6061454" data-attributes="member: 40857"><p>OK, wow this intro is probably harder to write than the actual article. Anyway here goes...</p><p></p><p> First off this is not a troll. I have probably had far too much time on my hands to mull this over but for the past few weeks I have been pondering DnD, specifically what makes Dungeons and Dragons... well Dungeons and Dragons. A lot of other topics have been mixed up in this too, things like edition wars, balance and what makes something a role playing game. </p><p> So I am just going to throw it out there. I am not sure that DnD is a roleplaying game. Let me lay it out and then everyone can lay into me.</p><p></p><p> A long time ago (40 years or so) in a basement far, far away (far from me anyway) two guys named Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson made a little game. Based off of wargames they crafted a game that no one had seen before. It centered around a small group of warriors and wizards who wandered around a series of interconnected rooms kicking in doors, killing things and taking their stuff... and dying... often.</p><p> It wasn't a perfect game but it did fulfill its main ideas quite well. The thing I have problems reconciling is that this is not the game I play. When I sit down and say to my friends "Let's play DnD." That is not the game I am talking about. </p><p></p><p> I'm not sure where things changed. I will hazard a guess that at some point the players got attatched to their characters. After countless dead characters you start to identify with the ones that you put the most time into. (anyone who has played hardcore mode on Diablo, Torchlight or similar games knows what I'm talking about.) </p><p> Add to the that the fact that this is not the game I was promised, just look at the "What is Roleplaying?" section of the Player's Handbook, you get a spiel about imagination, stories, choice, villains and heroes. Appendix N is just as bad for fostering this idea by giving a list of stories that are in fact about heroes and villains and grand adventure and all sorts of things which make for terrific stories, but have a hard time being shoehorned into a game that takes place primarily in 5x5 foot corridors and 20x20 foot rooms and has the main characters dying all the time. Really to tell a good story you need to take the dragons, and most everything else, out of the dungeon.</p><p></p><p> I want to say that this doesn't mean DnD, as originally created anyway, is bad or anything I just think that we are going about it a little sideways. I think Gygax in essence made a very good fish ( in that it swims well, breathes underwater just fine and the like). The problem being is that for the last few decades the majority of players have been under the impression that they have a bird and are thus disappointed when they toss the poor thing out a window and lament that it doesn't fly that far.</p><p></p><p> It's not to say that you can't create the grand, sweeping epics, and advetures that you want to play with DnD. But the core rules and conceits of DnD, which haven't changed much through the years, don't lend themselves to this style of game. I feel that every edition of DnD has really been an attempt to rectify and clarify rules to make these kinds of games possible.</p><p> Early editions pretty much left this up to the DM, with mixed results obviously. Some DMs were great at this, they could make up stuff on the fly and everyone had fun. A lot of people however couldn't and so wanted "official" rules for all the corner cases they came up against (fairly difficult when you can do pretty much anything) but that hasn't stopped designers from trying. So we have ended up with an ever expanding set of "core" rules to help make our fish fly. And I think in the end they have been largely successful. But the grognard in me feels that maybe we are getting farther and farther away from what makes DnD, DnD. I guess by working on making it soar it's starting to taste less and less like fish...</p><p></p><p>Anyway just some semi random thoughts. Hopefully leads to some discussion.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Meatboy, post: 6061454, member: 40857"] OK, wow this intro is probably harder to write than the actual article. Anyway here goes... First off this is not a troll. I have probably had far too much time on my hands to mull this over but for the past few weeks I have been pondering DnD, specifically what makes Dungeons and Dragons... well Dungeons and Dragons. A lot of other topics have been mixed up in this too, things like edition wars, balance and what makes something a role playing game. So I am just going to throw it out there. I am not sure that DnD is a roleplaying game. Let me lay it out and then everyone can lay into me. A long time ago (40 years or so) in a basement far, far away (far from me anyway) two guys named Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson made a little game. Based off of wargames they crafted a game that no one had seen before. It centered around a small group of warriors and wizards who wandered around a series of interconnected rooms kicking in doors, killing things and taking their stuff... and dying... often. It wasn't a perfect game but it did fulfill its main ideas quite well. The thing I have problems reconciling is that this is not the game I play. When I sit down and say to my friends "Let's play DnD." That is not the game I am talking about. I'm not sure where things changed. I will hazard a guess that at some point the players got attatched to their characters. After countless dead characters you start to identify with the ones that you put the most time into. (anyone who has played hardcore mode on Diablo, Torchlight or similar games knows what I'm talking about.) Add to the that the fact that this is not the game I was promised, just look at the "What is Roleplaying?" section of the Player's Handbook, you get a spiel about imagination, stories, choice, villains and heroes. Appendix N is just as bad for fostering this idea by giving a list of stories that are in fact about heroes and villains and grand adventure and all sorts of things which make for terrific stories, but have a hard time being shoehorned into a game that takes place primarily in 5x5 foot corridors and 20x20 foot rooms and has the main characters dying all the time. Really to tell a good story you need to take the dragons, and most everything else, out of the dungeon. I want to say that this doesn't mean DnD, as originally created anyway, is bad or anything I just think that we are going about it a little sideways. I think Gygax in essence made a very good fish ( in that it swims well, breathes underwater just fine and the like). The problem being is that for the last few decades the majority of players have been under the impression that they have a bird and are thus disappointed when they toss the poor thing out a window and lament that it doesn't fly that far. It's not to say that you can't create the grand, sweeping epics, and advetures that you want to play with DnD. But the core rules and conceits of DnD, which haven't changed much through the years, don't lend themselves to this style of game. I feel that every edition of DnD has really been an attempt to rectify and clarify rules to make these kinds of games possible. Early editions pretty much left this up to the DM, with mixed results obviously. Some DMs were great at this, they could make up stuff on the fly and everyone had fun. A lot of people however couldn't and so wanted "official" rules for all the corner cases they came up against (fairly difficult when you can do pretty much anything) but that hasn't stopped designers from trying. So we have ended up with an ever expanding set of "core" rules to help make our fish fly. And I think in the end they have been largely successful. But the grognard in me feels that maybe we are getting farther and farther away from what makes DnD, DnD. I guess by working on making it soar it's starting to taste less and less like fish... Anyway just some semi random thoughts. Hopefully leads to some discussion. [/QUOTE]
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Doing it wrong Part 1: Taking the dragon out of the dungeon
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