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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aegeri" data-source="post: 5259717" data-attributes="member: 78116">I am aware, but if you readjust an old monster those are the set "standard" maths and what you go for as a baseline. Monster attacks and even defenses have always varied in every MM - this guide is meant to give anyone a quick starting point as to what they should do when updating a creature.You don't need to adjust heroic tier monsters anyway and there are always broken monsters.For example in MM3 have you looked at the Jackalweres? A level 4 creature that can knock a PC unconscious paired with a level 3 brute that deals 26+2d4 damage on a critical hit (Coup de grace in this case).I mean, what do you think is worse there? Needlefang drakes and the Beholder Eye of Flame are pure chumps compared to those level 3 and 4 monsters!Many monsters vary from the established maths and have done since the original MM. I pointed out in the OP that while controllers get +3 vs. NADs, several MM3 creatures still have +4 or even +5.A close attack is a good example, but minor action attacks are a terrible terrible trap and it is not a good idea to give elites action economy with minor action attacks. An elite should, no matter if it is dazed or similar be able to make two consistent attacks per round. An elite being turned into a regular monster because it can't attack enough on its standard action isn't very well off - minor actions are nice at first but are ultimately traps.Note that is my personal opinion and is based on my experience. Dazed cripples elites that rely on move/minor actions to function - as such IMO an elite should still attack twice with its standard action. This is the MM2 guideline for creatures, that they should be doing roughly 50% more damage after they are bloodied. Usually this means they gain an additional attack. Spawning minions is just not very useful against a party with a decent controller, unless said minions do an especially nasty effect on death like explode giving it HP, attack bonuses or something similar.This is true, but it's irrelevant to what guidelines that Wizards have set out with monsters since the monster manual 1 came out: Which is what this thread summarizes. This is something that encounter design should take care of. Unfortunately resistances are too easy to get in 4E, which is why we have this problem but it's not uncommon for creatures to deal with this in various ways. Again, this goes into the waffly "point 6" in the OP (I'll concede that is waffly any day of the week). MM3 includes much better power design and ways around PCs that often negate their attacks.</blockquote>

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