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<blockquote data-quote="Theory of Games" data-source="post: 9626220" data-attributes="member: 7042201">sigh As usual on these threads, the goalpost keeps shifting:In the OP, YOU posted:&quot;How do you evoke this? What in D&amp;D seems to get the most in the way of it? Can you cause the players to feel pathos like that in your games? Do you ever inflict tragedy...on the PC's? Or is it NPC-only? How can the players see a tragedy about to play out and NOT intervene to fix it?&quot;Then, a page ago, you posted:&quot;So, that brings us to my earlier question about what it might look like if the tragedy doesn't directly impact the PC's specifically, since we can only do that so much in this campaign. Juilet isn't going to die until the end of the story. So what kind of things happen before that? What can we show with NPC's? What would an adventure based on Bonnie and Clyde or Scarface look like? Where the players aren't the doomed protagonists, but perhaps play a big role in that fate? Where the themes of tragedy can bounce off of some more expendable characters....while preserving the agency of the players AND the fated misfortune?&quot;So. I'm lost. Are the players' characters involved or not? I've addressed your concept by stating (1) you don't seem to understand what classical Tragedy is (2) dice rolls can turn a campaign in unexpected directions (3) and you're presently a storyline for the players to follow with their characters - as a director uses a screenplay to guide actors - ignoring an obvious negation of player agency, that simply isn't how D&amp;D functions. There are more story-oriented ttrpgs that can do what you want: Companions' Tale, The Microscope, Fiasco, or Polaris, for example. I get it that some people love D&amp;D and think you can handle any genre with it, and yeah, you can hammer a nail with a screwdriver (BTDT) BUT --- D&amp;D isn't the system for this.<img src="https://media.tenor.com/xs3O-NJbpL8AAAAM/just-sayin-larry-david.gif" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="220x220" style="" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="Theory of Games, post: 9626220, member: 7042201"] [I]sigh[/I] As usual on these threads, the goalpost keeps shifting: In the OP, YOU posted: [I]"How do you evoke this? What in D&D seems to get the most in the way of it? Can you cause the players to feel pathos like that in your games? Do you ever inflict tragedy...on the PC's? Or is it NPC-only? [B]How can the players see a tragedy about to play out and NOT intervene to fix it?[/B]"[/I] Then, a page ago, you posted: [I]"So, that brings us to my earlier question about what it might look like if the tragedy doesn't directly impact the PC's specifically, since we can only do that so much in this campaign. Juilet isn't going to die until the end of the story. So what kind of things happen before that? What can we show with NPC's? What would an adventure based on Bonnie and Clyde or Scarface look like? [B]Where the players aren't the doomed protagonists, but perhaps play a big role in that fate?[/B] Where the themes of tragedy can bounce off of some more expendable characters....while preserving the agency of the players AND the fated misfortune?"[/I] So. I'm lost. [U]Are the players' characters involved or not?[/U] I've addressed your concept by stating (1) you don't seem to understand what classical Tragedy is (2) dice rolls can turn a campaign in unexpected directions (3) and you're presently a storyline for the players to follow with their characters - as a director uses a screenplay to guide actors - ignoring an obvious negation of player agency, that simply isn't how D&D functions. There are more story-oriented ttrpgs that can do what you want: Companions' Tale, The Microscope, Fiasco, or Polaris, for example. I get it that some people love D&D and think you can handle any genre with it, and yeah, you can hammer a nail with a screwdriver (BTDT) BUT --- D&D isn't the system for this. [IMG size="220x220"]https://media.tenor.com/xs3O-NJbpL8AAAAM/just-sayin-larry-david.gif[/IMG] [/QUOTE]

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