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<blockquote data-quote="Bill Zebub" data-source="post: 8467806" data-attributes="member: 7031982">(The poster who wrote this has been kicked from the thread, but maybe the response I almost wrote (before that happened) may help explain to [USER=45197]@pming[/USER] what the issue is.)Yes, I participated in that sort of thing as well...when I was a teenager.&nbsp; I was being one of the guys.&nbsp; And funny (or so I thought).&nbsp; Now with some age and perspective I realize I was being not just juvenile, but hurtful.&nbsp; At a high school reunion, a classmate reminded me of a particularly awful thing I said about gay men.&nbsp; In English class.&nbsp; I'm not going to repeat exactly what it was I said, because honestly I'm embarrassed now.&nbsp; But I didn't actually believe it.&nbsp; I was, again, just being funny.&nbsp; And, honestly, I had forgotten about it.But this classmate had not forgotten.&nbsp; Because he was/is...spoiler alert...gay.&nbsp; But in high school he wasn't out of the closet...basically nobody of that age was in those days...so I didn't know that.&nbsp; I didn't even know or suspect there were any gays/ lesbians in my school.&nbsp; (Clueless, huh?). So, yeah, he remembered.&nbsp; And he obviously remembered being hurt.&nbsp; And, man, do I respect him for calling me out for it 20 years later.Here's the thing, though: what I said wasn't wrong because somebody of the targeted group happened to be present.&nbsp; It was wrong just because being a malicious jerk is wrong.&nbsp; It's wrong to normalize that behavior, regardless of who is present or might be present or definitely is not present.&nbsp; Not &quot;wrong&quot; in the sense of hurting somebody directly, but...morally degrading.&nbsp; It does nothing to make the world a better place, and might very well make the world a worse place.&nbsp; It's funny (for those who think so) because it taps into some of our ugliest aspects.&nbsp; Getting a laugh from somebody else's weakness is, itself, weakness.&nbsp; However, because our culture (probably most all/most cultures?) normalizes it, because we grow up with sitcoms and stand-up comedians who do it, it's pretty understandable to forget that it's not ok and sometimes still do it.&nbsp; So I don't condemn people who maybe haven't thought about all this, and sometimes make a joke at the expense of other people.&nbsp; I know I still do it myself, and sometimes don't even notice.But to actively defend the behavior, to write post after post after post arguing that such juvenile behavior is fine and harmless and how dare you tell me I shouldn't do it....that sort of astounds me.No, I'm not offended.&nbsp; I'm disgusted.Sometimes I hate the Internet for what it reveals to me.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Bill Zebub, post: 8467806, member: 7031982"] (The poster who wrote this has been kicked from the thread, but maybe the response I almost wrote (before that happened) may help explain to [USER=45197]@pming[/USER] what the issue is.) Yes, I participated in that sort of thing as well...[I]when I was a teenager[/I]. I was being one of the guys. And funny (or so I thought). Now with some age and perspective I realize I was being not just juvenile, but hurtful. At a high school reunion, a classmate reminded me of a particularly awful thing I said about gay men. In English class. I'm not going to repeat exactly what it was I said, because honestly I'm embarrassed now. But I didn't actually believe it. I was, again, just being funny. And, honestly, I had forgotten about it. But this classmate had not forgotten. Because he was/is...spoiler alert...gay. But in high school he wasn't out of the closet...basically nobody of that age was in those days...so I didn't know that. I didn't even know or suspect there were any gays/ lesbians in my school. (Clueless, huh?). So, yeah, he remembered. And he obviously remembered being hurt. And, man, do I respect him for calling me out for it 20 years later. Here's the thing, though: what I said wasn't wrong because somebody of the targeted group happened to be present. It was wrong just because being a malicious jerk is wrong. It's wrong to normalize that behavior, regardless of who is present or might be present or definitely is not present. Not "wrong" in the sense of hurting somebody directly, but...morally degrading. It does nothing to make the world a better place, and might very well make the world a worse place. It's funny (for those who think so) because it taps into some of our ugliest aspects. Getting a laugh from somebody else's weakness is, itself, weakness. However, because our culture (probably most all/most cultures?) normalizes it, because we grow up with sitcoms and stand-up comedians who do it, it's pretty understandable to forget that it's not ok and sometimes still do it. So I don't condemn people who maybe haven't thought about all this, and sometimes make a joke at the expense of other people. I know I still do it myself, and sometimes don't even notice. But to actively defend the behavior, to write post after post after post arguing that such juvenile behavior is fine and harmless and [I]how dare you tell me I shouldn't do it[/I]....that sort of astounds me. No, I'm not offended. I'm disgusted. Sometimes I hate the Internet for what it reveals to me. [/QUOTE]

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