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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Yaarel" data-source="post: 8731298" data-attributes="member: 58172">A close reading of a brief description of Doomspace in Spelljammer implies: The same "gods" that warred against the primordials are the same "gods" that destroyed the crystal sphere.In other words, these astrals relate to the 4e "Dawn War".The 4e Dawn War astrals, as such, seem to lack official existence in 5e. The DMs Guide mentions the list hypothetically as a "sample", an "example assembled from preexisting elements to suit the needs of a particular campaign".The Dawn War appears to come after the draconic "First World" that 5e Fizbans describes. In the First World:The dragons create the material plane, and its first world. The astrals invade the material plane, bringing humanoids with them, who colonize it. The humanoid creature type has a "dual nature", being simultaneously both astral and material. The astrals defeat Bahamut, Sardior flees, and Tiamat fights but eventually succumbs. The astrals trap Tiamat in the astral plane, in the LE Hells. Bahamut makes a treaty with the astrals, and relocates to the astral plane, to LG Celestia. Tiamat breaks free, launches into vengeance. But then somehow the draconic First World "sunders" into different worlds in the material plane. The planets of Toril (Forgotten Realms), Eberron, Krynn (Dragonlance), and Oerth (Greyhawk) canonically come into existence from this sundering. With uncertainty Sardior "shatters" becoming the gem dragons in each of these worlds.Fizbans mentions the Dawn War in its discussion of the sundering of the First World. This implies, the Dawn War happens after the First World. So, chronologically:1 dragons, 2 material plane, 3 First World, 4 sundering, 5 Fyreen, 6 primordials, 7 Dawn War, 8 crystal sphere, 9 eventually Dawn War gods destroy the crystal sphere.The 5e DMs Guide refers to the 4e astrals as Dawn War. Some of these are officially part of the Forgotten Realms setting. Several Evil astrals − Bane, Lolth, Gruumsh, and Asmodeus − but also the Forgotten Realms astrals relating to dwarf, orc, and elf appear to be among those destroying the crystal sphere. The astrals relating to humans seem mainly from Greyhawk, albeit 4e has Bane as a central war leader.By this time, Bahamut and Tiamat are part of the astral plane, so perhaps they too, alongside Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk, are part of the war against the primordials of Fyreen.DAWN WAR (FORGOTTEN REALMS)BAHAMUT (Forgotten Realms)TIAMAT (Forgotten Realms)BANE (Forgotten Realms)ASMODEUS (Forgotten Realms)LOLTH (Forgotten Realms)GRUUMSH (Forgotten Realms)MORADIN (Forgotten Realms)SEHANINE (Forgotten Realms)CORELLON (Forgotten Realms)Vecna (Greyhawk)Tharizdun (Greyhawk)Raven Queen (Wee Jas) (Greyhawk)Kord (Greyhawk)Pelor (Greyhawk)AvandraErathisZehirTorog (4e)loun (4e)Melora (4e)Curiously, all of the astrals − both Good and Evil − work together to war against the elemental primordials of Fyreen in the material plane, also work together to destroy the crystal sphere, and perhaps the "Good" "gods" commit crimes against humanity against Fyreen.</blockquote>

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