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<blockquote data-quote="WaterRabbit" data-source="post: 83407" data-attributes="member: 2445">I was thinking about how armor works when DR is added to the mix.&nbsp; I noticed the following progression with weapons in a normal D&amp;D setting.&nbsp; The following critical ranges are equivalent (as far as damage delivered is concerned):[CODE]20(1)&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 19(1)&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 18(1)&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 17(1)&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 16(1)&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 15(1)&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 14(1)&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 13(1)&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 12(1)20(2)20(3)&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 19(2)20(4)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 18(2)20(5)&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 19(3)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 17(2)20(6)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 16(2)20(7)&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 19(4)&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 18(3)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 15(2)20(8)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 14(2)20(9)&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 19(5)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 17(3)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 13(2)20(10)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 18(4)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; 12(2)[/CODE]&nbsp; &nbsp; In a Vitality/Wound system, if you score a critical your damage bypasses vitality and goes straight to wounds.&nbsp; In the Shadow Chasers variant, armor provides DR only against wound damage.&nbsp; The problem has always been that when you introduce DR it favors high damage weapons and leaves the low damage weapons out in the cold.&nbsp; &nbsp; However, using the above table you could assign Armor Penetration to a weapon based upon its 20 threat range equivalent equal to its 20 critical multiple.&nbsp; Non-lethal attacks would have 0 penetration.&nbsp; &nbsp; For example, let's look at a short sword [1d6, 19-20/x2] against a breast plate (+5, assume DR 5).&nbsp; In a normal exchange, a short sword does 1d6 – 5 points of damage.&nbsp; On a crit. it would do 2d6 - 5 points of damage.&nbsp; However, if instead we use the critical multiple of the equivalent 20 critical as armor penetration, then our short sword would also have 3 points of AP.&nbsp; In this system, our short sword would do 1d6 – 2 (3 AP – 5 DR) of damage on a normal hit and 2d6 – 2 on a critical hit.&nbsp; All this is for the standard Hit Points system.&nbsp; &nbsp; Ok, how do we figure out sneak attacks.&nbsp; We assume that a sneak attack is so well placed that it bypasses a certain amount of armor.&nbsp; So, a 9th level rogue (+5d6 sneak) with a short sword in D&amp;D would do 1d6 + 5d6 on a sneak and critical for 2d6 + 5d6 on a confirmed 19-20.&nbsp; If we use the vitality/wound/defense/DR system, then the rogue would do 1d6 + 5d6 vitality on a sneak, 1d6 + 5d6 wounds on a critical sneak.&nbsp; Against a DR 5 breastplate our ranges of damage would be 6d6 – 5 (16 on average) -- a little crippling on PCs.&nbsp; However, if we used the variant I am suggesting, then we get the following:Normal 1d6 vitality crit on a 19-20, AP 3.Normal critical 1d6 - 2 wounds (or if target does not have any vitality)Sneak 1d6 + 5d6 to critical range for a 14-20 crit chanceSneak critical, 1d6-2 wounds.Or give up two points of critical range to increase penetration by two for:Sneak 1d6 vitality critical on a 16-20, AP 5Sneak critical 1d6 wounds.Let's compare to a two-handed sword [2d6, 19-20 x2] in this system:Normal 2d6 vitality critical on a 19-20, AP 3On a critical, 2d6 - 2 wounds&nbsp; &nbsp; Let’s assume our target has a CON of 18.&nbsp; It would take 6 hits on average to kill the target with the short sword sneak attack.&nbsp; If would take 4 hits on average to kill the target with a two-handed sword.&nbsp; This seems to feel about right.&nbsp; So, the large weapons still do more damage, but the rogue's sneak gets a higher chance for a critical with each hit.&nbsp; To me this feels more like how the sneak attack should work -- finding openings in the armor.&nbsp; This also works for a rapier, which would have an AP of 4 in this system, not because it punches through armor, but because it is good at finding unprotected openings.&nbsp; This would still make rogues dangerous, but not devastating.&nbsp; BTW, our 9th level rogue with a rapier would then crit. on a 13 or better with a sneak attack.&nbsp; You could summarize this analysis as follows:For every +1d6 on sneak attack, that increases the weapon’s critical range by one.OR the weapon’s armor penetration by one.&nbsp; &nbsp; If you really wanted to go wild, you could scale this with spells like fireball and lightning bolt.&nbsp; A 10th level wizard casts a fireball which normally has a 20(1) equivalent and does 10d6 points of damage (meaning that a 1 always fails).&nbsp; Instead, fireball does 5d6 points of damage but each level increases the chance to “critical” with it.&nbsp; So, this wizard would do 5d6 and auto save fail on a 1-5.&nbsp; Fire Resistance would again protect wounds, so against a creature with Resist Elements Fire would take:&nbsp; &nbsp; 5d6 points of vitality about 17.5 points of damage on average.&nbsp; &nbsp; 5d6 - 12 points of wounds on a failed saving throw of 1-5.&nbsp; About 5.5 points of damage on average.Just some strange ideas.&nbsp; J
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[QUOTE="WaterRabbit, post: 83407, member: 2445"] I was thinking about how armor works when DR is added to the mix. I noticed the following progression with weapons in a normal D&D setting. The following critical ranges are equivalent (as far as damage delivered is concerned): [color=white][b][CODE] 20(1) 19(1) 18(1) 17(1) 16(1) 15(1) 14(1) 13(1) 12(1) 20(2) 20(3) 19(2) 20(4) 18(2) 20(5) 19(3) 17(2) 20(6) 16(2) 20(7) 19(4) 18(3) 15(2) 20(8) 14(2) 20(9) 19(5) 17(3) 13(2) 20(10) 18(4) 12(2) [/CODE][/b][/color] In a Vitality/Wound system, if you score a critical your damage bypasses vitality and goes straight to wounds. In the Shadow Chasers variant, armor provides DR only against wound damage. The problem has always been that when you introduce DR it favors high damage weapons and leaves the low damage weapons out in the cold. However, using the above table you could assign Armor Penetration to a weapon based upon its 20 threat range equivalent equal to its 20 critical multiple. Non-lethal attacks would have 0 penetration. For example, let's look at a short sword [1d6, 19-20/x2] against a breast plate (+5, assume DR 5). In a normal exchange, a short sword does 1d6 – 5 points of damage. On a crit. it would do 2d6 - 5 points of damage. However, if instead we use the critical multiple of the equivalent 20 critical as armor penetration, then our short sword would also have 3 points of AP. In this system, our short sword would do 1d6 – 2 (3 AP – 5 DR) of damage on a normal hit and 2d6 – 2 on a critical hit. All this is for the standard Hit Points system. Ok, how do we figure out sneak attacks. We assume that a sneak attack is so well placed that it bypasses a certain amount of armor. So, a 9th level rogue (+5d6 sneak) with a short sword in D&D would do 1d6 + 5d6 on a sneak and critical for 2d6 + 5d6 on a confirmed 19-20. If we use the vitality/wound/defense/DR system, then the rogue would do 1d6 + 5d6 vitality on a sneak, 1d6 + 5d6 wounds on a critical sneak. Against a DR 5 breastplate our ranges of damage would be 6d6 – 5 (16 on average) -- a little crippling on PCs. However, if we used the variant I am suggesting, then we get the following: Normal 1d6 vitality crit on a 19-20, AP 3. Normal critical 1d6 - 2 wounds (or if target does not have any vitality) Sneak 1d6 + 5d6 to critical range for a 14-20 crit chance Sneak critical, 1d6-2 wounds. Or give up two points of critical range to increase penetration by two for: Sneak 1d6 vitality critical on a 16-20, AP 5 Sneak critical 1d6 wounds. Let's compare to a two-handed sword [2d6, 19-20 x2] in this system: Normal 2d6 vitality critical on a 19-20, AP 3 On a critical, 2d6 - 2 wounds Let’s assume our target has a CON of 18. It would take 6 hits on average to kill the target with the short sword sneak attack. If would take 4 hits on average to kill the target with a two-handed sword. This seems to feel about right. So, the large weapons still do more damage, but the rogue's sneak gets a higher chance for a critical with each hit. To me this feels more like how the sneak attack should work -- finding openings in the armor. This also works for a rapier, which would have an AP of 4 in this system, not because it punches through armor, but because it is good at finding unprotected openings. This would still make rogues dangerous, but not devastating. BTW, our 9th level rogue with a rapier would then crit. on a 13 or better with a sneak attack. You could summarize this analysis as follows: For every +1d6 on sneak attack, that increases the weapon’s critical range by one. OR the weapon’s armor penetration by one. If you really wanted to go wild, you could scale this with spells like fireball and lightning bolt. A 10th level wizard casts a fireball which normally has a 20(1) equivalent and does 10d6 points of damage (meaning that a 1 always fails). Instead, fireball does 5d6 points of damage but each level increases the chance to “critical” with it. So, this wizard would do 5d6 and auto save fail on a 1-5. Fire Resistance would again protect wounds, so against a creature with Resist Elements Fire would take: 5d6 points of vitality about 17.5 points of damage on average. 5d6 - 12 points of wounds on a failed saving throw of 1-5. About 5.5 points of damage on average. Just some strange ideas. J[list] [/list] [/QUOTE]

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