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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6293978" data-attributes="member: 6696971">I don't understand either.  And I mean not at all.  More and more when I read these particular sorts of objections I can only conclude that indeed it has much to do with the aesthetics of the layout of the rules (such as the "indexing" as you described it) and how that differs with prior aesthetics.  It has little or nothing to do with what actual tropes are possible within play, at the table, by way of deft GMing and engaged players.  @<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=2067" target="_blank">Kamikaze Midget</a> , 100 % guaranteed I could run you through a satisfactory Elder Blue Dragon adventure set in desert at the end of Paragon Tier (level 20 Solo).  Assuming the PCs are trying to locate the dragon's lair and survive the perils of its desert domain, you'd have:1)  Two concurrent, complexity 3 Skill Challenges.  One Skill Challenge would be to "locate the dragon's lair" while the second one would be to "survive the perils of the dragon's desert domain."- The "Locate" SC might involve the use of divination rituals, the leveraging of various knowledge skills, and dealing with Bedouin tribes (perhaps parlay or reconnaissance and intelligence).  "Locate" SC complications might earn them conflict with the immediate Bedouin tribe interacted with or perhaps a competitor that venerates the dragon.  Failed divinations might earn them psychic backlash (in the way of 2 lost surges or dealing with a particularly lethal mind-attacking trap) and/or an attack from * Desert Madness.- Ultimate failure in "Locate" SC might lead them astray into a terrible conflict that costs them dearly.  Perhaps a potentially lethal encounter as the site turns out to be the lair of another terrible creature and its minions (maybe even a competing Blue...of which they can potentially seek sponsorship in the removal of its rival by way of a social SC).  Perhaps the lair was an illusory failsafe planted by the Blue itself.  Upon the PCs arrival to the site of the fake lair, the dragon deploys contingencies (maybe the lair is a giant hazard that they must deal with - either as taxing combat or as a taxing SC - or perhaps the site is cursed and the PCs are attacked by a Desert Madness), and reinforces its redoubt.  There should be clear signs of the fallout, which earn the PCs an accrued failure in the "Survive" SC and lost surges.  Now they have to perform the "Locate" SC again.- The "Survive" SC would stipulate that an Extended Rest cannot be achieved until the PCs succeed in the SC.  Success in it would involve Exploration and Travel Rituals, physical and survival skills, and potentially some social skills if complications include intelligent life or locals that can end up as friend, foe or other.  "Survive" complications would involve sandstorms, benign mirages, encounters with magical illusory effects from the dragon (such as an encounter with a hazard that attacks Will by representing itself as an oasis and attempts to send the creature over  a cliff face to its death), exposure, predators, hostile locals and possible run-in with the dragons servitors or the dragon itself.  Accrued failures would earn an attack from Desert Madness (or a required check for potential advancement if the PC already has it) and taxed surges.  - Ultimate failure in the "Survive" SC would mean big trouble.  They would likely already be down a considerable number of surges (if not tapped), likely other daily resources, and possibly afflicted with Desert Madness.  They would need to start anew before they could earn an Extended Rest, taxed with surge-loss, and perhaps hit with Desert Madness (or the threat of advancement).2)  Once the above is successfully resolved, depending upon how the fiction evolved, the PCs are probably going to be involved in a difficult infiltration Skill Challenge of some sort.  Accrued failures would tax everyone's surges, bring about traps/hazards or dragon servitors that would tax the PCs yet more resources (Dailies, Surges, perhaps companions/cohorts that they have gained/rallied in the prior efforts).  There could be all manner of results from ultimate failure here, up to and including the showing up of the "rival" blue that they thought they had earned as an ally, only to reveal the double-cross as they enter the Elder Blue Dragon's lair.3)  Then you have a fight with an Elder Blue Dragon which, in 4e, looks all the part and actually fights as a Blue Dragon, flying proficiently, wings scouring with the blasts of a wind(sand)storm, goring with its great horn, mauling with its claws, and calling lightning from its maw as well as its thunderclaps and bolts of lightning due to its mastery of those elements.  It is not a humongous, flying, blue lizard-sorcerer.You give its lair all manner of illusion traps and wards that are part of the encounter budget that can be the direct creation of the great Blue.  You gives its lair all manner of desert-themed terrain elements (sliding sand dunes, sand-blasting winds, lightning sandpits, etc).  You can bring in whatever servitors have become relevant or are generally thematically relevant.Perhaps the other Blue shows up (the one sponsoring the PCs if it goes that way) when the Elder Blue hits Bloodied and you give the PCs control of it as a (standard) companion character for the rest of the fight.  Who knows what happens from there.Anyhoo.  All told, I don't know how it could possibly be contended that the system components of 4e don't back GMs up (and PCs) with the means for an absolutely awesome Blue Dragon experience.  The above would make for an extremely difficult, thematic challenge that can be ramped up or down in difficulty just by means of encounter budgeting, complication fallout, by moving the SCs down a complexity, or by alleviating the requirements for an Extended Rest.  Or it could be made more difficult by doing the same in the opposite direction.</blockquote>

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