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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Derren" data-source="post: 6295301" data-attributes="member: 2518">You and me have a different idea of what fair means.You follow 4Es idea of fairness that there is always a about 50%+ success chance, no matter what the PCs can actually do or how prepared they are.My idea of fairness is that there is a structured way how to get results the players are aware of right at the beginning of the game which does not change according to the DMs whim nor require handwaving or second guessing.Situation: A storm is raging and the fighter has fallen into waterYou: Make a level appropriate 3-1 skill challenge with swim. As you wear armor I make this a hard DC.I: Stormy water is a DC 25 swim check, you encumbrance means a -4 to swim rolls.Its basically the same as Combat as Sport (4E) and Combat as War (3E), just applied to out of combat situations.Plus of course that the support for out of combat events is severly lacking in 4E and most of the time requires the DM to make stuff up (way beforhand unless you narrate it to keep it "fair"). Blue Dragons can summon storms? For how long? How large? What intensity? How often can they do it? Can a ritual counter it? Even when the PCs can't get all those informations, they need to be fixed before the out of combat event starts as otherwise they can't get "legitimately lucky" and I have too much respect for my players to pull a Deus Ex Machina to decide that the storm subsides just as they are about to drown, nor do I see it as fair to let them drown just so I do not do a DEM.As you didn't catch my edit, I ask again, would you allow the skill challenge to TPK the party (or just kill several PCs)? Would you make it unwinnable?Example:Using 3E Blue dragons in the desert who have the ability to destroy water, how would you handle the situation of the party going after it without their normal water reserves. Would the blue dragon be able to destroy their reserves? Under which circumstances? Can the PCs prevent it? And what happens when they run out of water? Would you kill characters through thirst?The difference is that in 3E all of those questions were answered by the rules while 4E ignores that completely. And unless the DM provides the answer to all those questions and makes them known to the players before they embark on this journey (if the PCs make enough inquiries to warrant such informations) the outcome, likely death, can hardly be called fair. Either its a "You succeed in 60 +- 10% no matter what you do", what 4E favors or it is a "gotcha, you are dead because I said so" or its opposite "You got lucky and find just enough water to survive". Or it is a "narrative" bad things happen, but it won't kill you as that would break the narrative flow. All of that is in my eyes quite lacking.</blockquote>

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