Draconic Monster Classes - Some Help

[Wik]

Alright. In my upcoming Drasconis campaign (an empire ruled by dragons), I wanted to have some draconic options available to first level PCs. The first, half-dragons, are an easy one (I'll let them work off their LA somehow), but I'd really like to see someone play an actual draconic character.

I know DRAGON magazine made monster classes for all ten dragon types a few years back, and I like the general direction they were going in. I know the classes were a bit weak (monster classes always are), but I'm not that worried, because dragons will have so many benefits from having political clout that I'm sure beign statistically weaker is that much of a drawback.

No, the real problems here are:

1) There are no draconic "breeds" in my campaign. What might be a "red dragon" in D&D rules could have blue scales, be lawful good in alignment, and give birth to two blue dragons and a gold. Dragons are pretty much dictated by the elements and random chance.

2) The Dragon Monster Classes in the DRAGON magazines are pretty broad in how they're written up, meaning a dragon PC can't contribute to a group. After all, they're pretty much weak at melee, with some good mobility abilities, and some puny spellcasting talents. Because of this, a dragon really doesn't contribute much to an equal-level group.

I really want to have 20 level draconic classes available in my game. What I was thinking of goes something like this:

1) Have three draconic classes - the draconic warrior, the draconic expert, and the draconic adept (or something similar in name). Really, each is a dragon monster class, but with different focuses.
2) The Draconic Warrior would progress well in melee damage, size categories, breath weapon damage, natural armour class, and strength and constitution ability improvements. However, he wouldn't progress as quickly in spell acquisition (I think he'd get spells really late in the game, if at all), draconic features (no aura of fear for example), and skils.
3) The Draconic Expert would get decent skill points, better mobility progression, alright spell progression (maybe like a ranger or something), Decent Breath Weapon Damage, and pretty good draconic features ("I get two breath weapons, and I can polymorph!"). He would also be a bit more flexible in where he got his ability bonuses.
4) The Draconic adept would be more spell-focused, although not as fast as, say, a sorcerer (I think a bard's level of progression might work nicely). Of course, the class gets little in the way of skill points and attack forms (it'd be restricted to claw/claw/bite for it's entire career).
5) All classes would still be dragons - so they'd get the d12 hit die, the draconic monster type, and all that.
6) I was thinking of each class getting access to "Draconic Talents", which would work just like feats - only they add dragon-like abilities (aura of fear, draconic senses, specialty attacks, and all that). Each class accesses these talents differently, but any class can pick any talent (although a Draconic Adept should think twice before picking up Tail Slap, for example).
7) Each dragon would get a breath weapon, selected from a list of possible choices (I was thinking Acid, Cold, Fire, or Electricity, and maybe a non-violent choice as well... other breath weapons, like Sonic or Poison Gas, would require a talent to be selected).

Now, the reason I posted - does anyone see some big, gaping holes here before I start working on a good twenty pages of material?

Has anyone used the DRAGON magazine monster classes? What were your experiences?

Am I crazy in doing this?

 

[Rampant]

The problem I see is that since each class has the same skeleton, you have to balance their powers against each other.

D12 HD
6+int skill points
All good saves
Perfect Bab

Now that doesn't leave a whole lot of room for abilities. So specializing into seperate classes is a good idea.

The way I see it better names might be SpellWyrm, Mauler, and Dreadserpent.

As to the dragon progressions, I feel you may be undervaluing their usefullness, but I understand your issues with the progressions, especially with what you've posted of your take on dragons.

I like the idea, and see nothing majorly wrong with the idea so far.

 

[crazy_monkey1956]

As with any monster class, the dragon progressions in Dragon (heh) suffer from "level adjustment levels" ie, levels in which the dragon's HD and everything related to it doesn't progress. Working off of your model, you could create a 20 level progression that is essentially a Dragon Class, as opposed to a dragon monster class, eliminating LA altogether. Just balance each class against the base classes. I like the idea of your draconic talents, though I'd make them draconic feats and give each draconic class a bonus feat progression related to how draconicly focused they are. The "pure dragon" would have a bonus draconic feat progression similar to a fighter's, but no spellcasting. The draconic adept would have a slower bonus feat progression, say similar to a wizard's, but has decent spellcasting. Make the breath weapons bonus draconic feats as well. If you want to emulate some of the core dragons spellcasting versatility (able to cast cleric and domain spells as sorcerer spells) add those in as draconic feats as well. Maybe make size increases draconic feats.

Just some ideas off the top of my head.

 

[crazy_monkey1956]

Side note: Do you mind if I borrow this idea for my own campaigns?

 

[Wik]

Side note: Do you mind if I borrow this idea for my own campaigns?

Not at all.

I've taken a few looks at the Monster Manuals, and made up some size progression charts. I think I might break some of the established rules, so that different dragons receive different hit dice.

The draconic feats idea is a fine one, but I don't like the idea of dragon PCs spending their 1st, 3rd, 6th level feats (which would normally be used for general feats) on acquiring what should be inherent draconic abilities. Seems like a ripoff for 'em. Which is why I wanted to use a word like "talent", to differentiate them (in semantics, at least) from basic feats.

And Rampant - I love the titles there. I'm gonna be stealing at least one of 'em, if not them all.

 

[Arkhandus]

Keep in mind that dragons have a level adjustment for a reason. Dragon racial hit dice are more awesome than even a Warblade's (Bo9S). Better skill points and saving throws than a Warblade. The best HD type, best saves, best BAB, and second-best skill points (as per the 3.5 Ranger or Bard).

Adding much to that beyond an occasional bonus feat or minor ability would be rather broken when leaving out the level adjustments that monster levels include. Dragons have lots of abilities and advantages, not just their high ability scores. So I dunno what you intend to do with them as PCs. Are dragons still going to be races, as well? And what would those races have by themselves?

*confuzzled*


Are you going to consider changing some of the basic parameters for each class? Frex, draconic warriors getting d12 HD, 2 sp/level, strong Fortitude, poor Reflex and Will, full BAB, and decent class features; draconic experts getting d8 HD, 6 sp/level, strong saves all around, medium BAB, better class features, and ranger-esque spellcasting; and draconic adepts getting d10 HD, 4 sp/level, strong Will, poor Fortitude and Reflex, medium BAB, weaker class features, and bard-esque spellcasting. Or something.

 

[Wik]

Keep in mind that dragons have a level adjustment for a reason. Dragon racial hit dice are more awesome than even a Warblade's (Bo9S). Better skill points and saving throws than a Warblade. The best HD type, best saves, best BAB, and second-best skill points (as per the 3.5 Ranger or Bard).

Adding much to that beyond an occasional bonus feat or minor ability would be rather broken when leaving out the level adjustments that monster levels include. Dragons have lots of abilities and advantages, not just their high ability scores. So I dunno what you intend to do with them as PCs. Are dragons still going to be races, as well? And what would those races have by themselves?

*confuzzled*


Are you going to consider changing some of the basic parameters for each class? Frex, draconic warriors getting d12 HD, 2 sp/level, strong Fortitude, poor Reflex and Will, full BAB, and decent class features; draconic experts getting d8 HD, 6 sp/level, strong saves all around, medium BAB, better class features, and ranger-esque spellcasting; and draconic adepts getting d10 HD, 4 sp/level, strong Will, poor Fortitude and Reflex, medium BAB, weaker class features, and bard-esque spellcasting. Or something.

Dragons are a mainstay of the setting - they're the movers and shakers. Because of that, I want them to be a PC option... which is why I'm creating the monster class (because the DRAGON dragons just don't work for me).

Basically, I think I'll mess with them a bit - the warrior dragon will have good hit dice and BAB, Claw Damage, Size, but not as many skill points, draconic abilities, breath weapon progressions, spells, whathave you.

Really, each class will focus on different draconic aspects, so that if I were to theoretically have three dragon PCs (which won't be allowed; I want a limit of one draconic PC at the start), they would each be different.

I think I have a lot of work cut out for me, since I"ll be messing with a lot of stuff (and using the ECL and LA as a guideline...).

These will be for PC use only... Draconic NPCs will simply be dragons, with rules modifications done by yours truly.

 

[Rampant]

Ok I find answering these questions helps me build a class:


1. What classes is this most similar to in terms of skeleton and role?

For example the combat focused one (lets call it mauler for now because its shorter) is going for combat focus, d12 HD, perfect BAB, 2+int skills, and one good save. This makes them similar to the Knight, he Warblade, and the Barbarian. So you can look to those three to make sure you're not overpowering the mauler.


2. What does this class need to be able to do, what should it be able to, and what would it be nice for it to be able to do. The need category becomes core abilities, the should becomes the extra bells a and whistles, the nice becomes special class specific feats.

A barbarians rage is a need to feature, the fast movement is a should feature, and the intimidating rage feat is a nice to feature. So A mauler's natural attack routine is a need to feature.