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<blockquote data-quote="officeronin" data-source="post: 842615" data-attributes="member: 8483">Bull!&nbsp; It's time to say the nerf bat has been applied.I have not seen any bones tossed to spellcasters -- only nerfs.&nbsp; Not one.&nbsp; Instead of the fighter being taken out for the full effect because he failed his will save (probably because he dumped on his Wisdom), the wizard and the cleric are taken out for their careers because their effective strategies at low levels are gone.&nbsp; Tell me what a low level cleric or wizard (up to 4th level) can do against a fighter.&nbsp; Nothing.&nbsp; With the non-nerfed hold line, they had one 50/50 shot (figuring in initiative and getting the spell disrupted) of stopping him.&nbsp; Now, they can throw a damaging spell for, say, 8 points before getting made into chutney.&nbsp; Until fireball comes around at level 5 for wizards, their damage dealing is significantly less than a fighter, as is their defense.&nbsp; Even after level 5, they can only do it a few times per day -- if for no other reason than they won't last longer due to poor hps and AC.Since a fighter's only weakness is will save (they've got the hit points to deal with damage from reflex saves), nerfing will save checks is a huge bonus to them, and not to any class that has a decent will save -- which means that clerics and wizards, who not only have good will saves but also rely on will save spells, are double hit.&nbsp; Harm now goes into the pile of spells never to be used (requires a touch attack, a save, and then has a damage cap of 150 -- which means that at 15th level, the cleric will reliably do around 40 points at the cost of exposing himself to getting mauled).&nbsp; Haste is now strictly a fighter buff (I misread early on and thought that haste did not allow two castings -- and never threw it).&nbsp; I hear shield is getting nerfed, too.&nbsp; So, with all these nerfs, what are spellcasters &quot;getting&quot;?&nbsp; Mystic Theurge, so they can suck with twice as many spells.&nbsp;It's only a matter of time before they give everyone an SR of 20+level.OfficeRonin</blockquote>

[QUOTE="officeronin, post: 842615, member: 8483"] Bull! It's time to say the nerf bat has been applied. I have not seen any bones tossed to spellcasters -- only nerfs. Not one. Instead of the fighter being taken out for the full effect because he failed his will save (probably because he dumped on his Wisdom), the wizard and the cleric are taken out for their careers because their effective strategies at low levels are gone. Tell me what a low level cleric or wizard (up to 4th level) can do against a fighter. Nothing. With the non-nerfed hold line, they had one 50/50 shot (figuring in initiative and getting the spell disrupted) of stopping him. Now, they can throw a damaging spell for, say, 8 points before getting made into chutney. Until fireball comes around at level 5 for wizards, their damage dealing is significantly less than a fighter, as is their defense. Even after level 5, they can only do it a few times per day -- if for no other reason than they won't last longer due to poor hps and AC. Since a fighter's only weakness is will save (they've got the hit points to deal with damage from reflex saves), nerfing will save checks is a huge bonus to them, and not to any class that has a decent will save -- which means that clerics and wizards, who not only have good will saves but also rely on will save spells, are double hit. Harm now goes into the pile of spells never to be used (requires a touch attack, a save, and then has a damage cap of 150 -- which means that at 15th level, the cleric will reliably do around 40 points at the cost of exposing himself to getting mauled). Haste is now strictly a fighter buff (I misread early on and thought that haste did not allow two castings -- and never threw it). I hear shield is getting nerfed, too. So, with all these nerfs, what are spellcasters "getting"? Mystic Theurge, so they can suck with twice as many spells. It's only a matter of time before they give everyone an SR of 20+level. OfficeRonin [/QUOTE]

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