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<blockquote data-quote="Scion" data-source="post: 2359203" data-attributes="member: 5777">I dont think you would really have to make the order predetermined, I think it throws off some of the use of the class.If, however, you make it so that the same one cant be picked twice in a row and no stat can have a higher bonus than +4 that would definately help. Or possibly if you allow the +2 to any stat but no stat may be picked more than once.I would also suggest disallowing them from useing their breath weapon two rounds in a row. The random roll would be a decent way to go about it or you could just pick a number. 5 times per day at higher levels tends to be much more useful than the trash it was before (although I'd probably start at 2 and go up from there, maybe even put up a feat which allows X more uses per day)All in all, I think comparing it with an eldritch knight build would be interesting. Mainly just to see how they compare (as one is more of a caster than the other it wont be a perfect comparison, but it should show something intersting)Given that you dont want them to look very draconic this probably isnt helpful, but I remade the class for my game awhile ago as well. Feel free to ignore it, I'm just putting it up in case it gives ideas somewhere else for you <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> (oh, toughness in my game is +1hp/hd, and I use action points so the characters can turn in 2 action points to get an extra breath weapon a day, that is why it stopped at 1)Dragon DiscipleHD: d6Race: Any nondragon (cannot already be a half-dragon)Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranksLanguages: DraconicSpellcasting: Ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells without preparationFeats: Dragon Blood Special: The player chooses a dragon variety when taking the first level in this prestige class, subject to DM’s approval.Class Skills:Concentration (con), Craft (int), Diplomacy (cha), Escape Artist (dex), Gather Information (cha), Knowledge (all) (int), Listen (wis), Profession (wis), Search (int), Speak Language (int), Spellcraft (int), and Spot (wis)Skill points: 2Weapons and armor prof: None are gainedBreath weapon (su): At first level a breath weapon with the appropriate elemental descriptor is gained. It deals 1d6 damage per level in dragon disciple and has a reflex save for half of 10 + levels in dragon disciple + con mod. This ability may be used 1/day. A character may choose which shape of breath weapon they will have.Dragon variety&nbsp;&nbsp; Breath WeaponBlack&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; AcidBlue&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; LightningGreen&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Acid (corrosive gas cloud)Red&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; FireWhite&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ColdBrass&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; FireBronze&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; LightningCopper&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; AcidGold&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; FireSilver&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; ColdAmethyst&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Force (this breath weapon deals d4 damage instead of d6)Crystal&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Light (on a failed save foes are blinded for d4 rounds, d4 damage instead of d6)Emerald&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Sonic (on a failed save foes are deafened for d4 rounds, d4 damage instead of d6)Sapphire&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Sonic (on a failed save foes are deafened for d4 rounds, d4 damage instead of d6)Topaz&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Dehydration (creatures without liquid in their bodies take no damage, regular creatures take d6, creatures made completely of liquid take d12)Line-shaped breath weapon is 5’ high, 5’ wide, 60’ long.Cone-shaped breath weapon is 30’ long, 90 degree arc.Burst-shaped breath weapon extends 10’ from the character in all directions.Natural armor increase (ex): At 1st, 4th, and 7th level a dragon disciple becomes more draconic in appearance. Skin develops tiny iridescent scales of the appropriate color which start off almost invisibly small at first but gain in size with level increase. At each of these levels the characters natural armor increases by 1 point. Having no natural armor to begin with is counted as starting with a natural armor of +0.Claws and bite (ex): At 2nd level the dragon disciple gains a bite/claw/claw natural attack routine. On a full attack the bite is made with full attack bonus and str damage bonus and the claws are made at -5 to attack and half str damage.Size&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Bite damage&nbsp; Claw damageSmall&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; d4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; d3Medium&nbsp; d6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; d4Large&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; d8&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; d6Spells per day: At 2nd level and each even level beyond that the character gains new spells per day as if they had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class the dragon disciple already has levels in. Essentially adding every even level in this prc to a former spellcasting class to determine spells per day and caster level.Ability Boost (ex): As the dragon disciple gains levels in this prc his ability scores increase as the table indicates. These increases stack.Toughness (ex): At levels 3, 6, and 9 the dragon disciple gets toughness as a bonus feat.Bonus draconic feat: At levels 3 and 7 the dragon disciple may choose a draconic feat if he has the prereqs for it.Blindsense (ex): At 5th level the dragon disciple gains blindsense 30’. Using his acute hearing the dragon disciple notices things it cannot see. This ability does not function in areas of silence or when the dragon disciple is deafened. He usually does not need to make spot or listen checks to notice and pinpoint the location of creatures within range of his blindsense ability, provided that he has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent that the dragon disciple cannot see still has total concealment against him, and the dragon disciple still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still effects the movement of a creature with blindsense although he gets a +2 bonus on checks to navigate these hazards. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to AC against creatures it cannot see, but if he has uncanny dodge that works vs invisible creatures he is treated as being 2 levels higher for purposes of who can bypass the ability. At 10th level, the range of the ability increases to 60’. Enlargement (ex): At 5th level or thereafter the dragon disciple may permanently lose a 4th level slot to gain a single size category above his normal size. This increase does not count as a magical increase in size.Wings (ex): At 9th level the disciple gains a set of wings and a flight speed equal to his normal land speed with average maneuverability.Dragon Apotheosis: At 10th level the dragon disciple fully realizes his draconic heritage and looks just like a full blooded half-dragon. He gains the Dragon blood trait of his dragon (much like how elf blood works for half elves). He gains darkvision of 60’ and lowlight vision along with immunity to sleep and paralysis effects. In addition, he gains the elemental subtype of his dragon. The dragon disciple also gains an additional +2 to str, con, and cha.Level&nbsp; BAB&nbsp; F&nbsp; &nbsp; R&nbsp;&nbsp; W&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Caster levels&nbsp; &nbsp; Special&nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 0&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +2&nbsp; +0&nbsp;&nbsp; +2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Breath weapon, Natural armor +12&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp; +0&nbsp;&nbsp; +3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Claws and Bite, Ability boost (str +2)3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp; +1&nbsp;&nbsp; +3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Toughness, bonus draconic feat4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +4&nbsp; +1&nbsp;&nbsp; +4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ability boost (str +2), Natural armor +25&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 2&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +4&nbsp; +1&nbsp;&nbsp; +4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Blindsense 30’, Enlargement6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +5&nbsp; +2&nbsp;&nbsp; +5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ability boost (Con +2), Toughness7&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 3&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +5&nbsp; +2&nbsp;&nbsp; +5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Natural armor +3, bonus draconic feat8&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +6&nbsp; +2&nbsp;&nbsp; +6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ability boost (int +2)9&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 4&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +6&nbsp; +3&nbsp;&nbsp; +6&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; Wings, Toughness10&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 5&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +7&nbsp; +3&nbsp;&nbsp; +7&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Blindsense 60’, dragon apotheosisDragon Lineage (draconic)Choose a dragon type. You now associate with this dragon type. You gain a +2 bonus on sense motive and diplomacy checks when dealing with a dragon, halfdragon, or another character with the same dragon heritage.Dragon Blood (draconic)Prereq: Dragon Lineage, Draconic heritageBenefit: Gain Energy Resistance 5 to the energy type that the dragon you chose has as a breath weapon.Dragon Casting (draconic)Prereq: Any 5 other draconic featsBenefit: Add the domain spells from the domain of your dragons element to your spell list. Also, gain the spells from the domain of one of your alignment types (lawful, chaotic, good, or evil).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Scion, post: 2359203, member: 5777"] I dont think you would really have to make the order predetermined, I think it throws off some of the use of the class. If, however, you make it so that the same one cant be picked twice in a row and no stat can have a higher bonus than +4 that would definately help. Or possibly if you allow the +2 to any stat but no stat may be picked more than once. I would also suggest disallowing them from useing their breath weapon two rounds in a row. The random roll would be a decent way to go about it or you could just pick a number. 5 times per day at higher levels tends to be much more useful than the trash it was before (although I'd probably start at 2 and go up from there, maybe even put up a feat which allows X more uses per day) All in all, I think comparing it with an eldritch knight build would be interesting. Mainly just to see how they compare (as one is more of a caster than the other it wont be a perfect comparison, but it should show something intersting) Given that you dont want them to look very draconic this probably isnt helpful, but I remade the class for my game awhile ago as well. Feel free to ignore it, I'm just putting it up in case it gives ideas somewhere else for you ;) (oh, toughness in my game is +1hp/hd, and I use action points so the characters can turn in 2 action points to get an extra breath weapon a day, that is why it stopped at 1) [size=1] Dragon Disciple HD: d6 Race: Any nondragon (cannot already be a half-dragon) Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8 ranks Languages: Draconic Spellcasting: Ability to cast 3rd level arcane spells without preparation Feats: Dragon Blood Special: The player chooses a dragon variety when taking the first level in this prestige class, subject to DM’s approval. Class Skills: Concentration (con), Craft (int), Diplomacy (cha), Escape Artist (dex), Gather Information (cha), Knowledge (all) (int), Listen (wis), Profession (wis), Search (int), Speak Language (int), Spellcraft (int), and Spot (wis) Skill points: 2 Weapons and armor prof: None are gained Breath weapon (su): At first level a breath weapon with the appropriate elemental descriptor is gained. It deals 1d6 damage per level in dragon disciple and has a reflex save for half of 10 + levels in dragon disciple + con mod. This ability may be used 1/day. A character may choose which shape of breath weapon they will have. Dragon variety Breath Weapon Black Acid Blue Lightning Green Acid (corrosive gas cloud) Red Fire White Cold Brass Fire Bronze Lightning Copper Acid Gold Fire Silver Cold Amethyst Force (this breath weapon deals d4 damage instead of d6) Crystal Light (on a failed save foes are blinded for d4 rounds, d4 damage instead of d6) Emerald Sonic (on a failed save foes are deafened for d4 rounds, d4 damage instead of d6) Sapphire Sonic (on a failed save foes are deafened for d4 rounds, d4 damage instead of d6) Topaz Dehydration (creatures without liquid in their bodies take no damage, regular creatures take d6, creatures made completely of liquid take d12) Line-shaped breath weapon is 5’ high, 5’ wide, 60’ long. Cone-shaped breath weapon is 30’ long, 90 degree arc. Burst-shaped breath weapon extends 10’ from the character in all directions. Natural armor increase (ex): At 1st, 4th, and 7th level a dragon disciple becomes more draconic in appearance. Skin develops tiny iridescent scales of the appropriate color which start off almost invisibly small at first but gain in size with level increase. At each of these levels the characters natural armor increases by 1 point. Having no natural armor to begin with is counted as starting with a natural armor of +0. Claws and bite (ex): At 2nd level the dragon disciple gains a bite/claw/claw natural attack routine. On a full attack the bite is made with full attack bonus and str damage bonus and the claws are made at -5 to attack and half str damage. Size Bite damage Claw damage Small d4 d3 Medium d6 d4 Large d8 d6 Spells per day: At 2nd level and each even level beyond that the character gains new spells per day as if they had also gained a level in whatever spellcasting class the dragon disciple already has levels in. Essentially adding every even level in this prc to a former spellcasting class to determine spells per day and caster level. Ability Boost (ex): As the dragon disciple gains levels in this prc his ability scores increase as the table indicates. These increases stack. Toughness (ex): At levels 3, 6, and 9 the dragon disciple gets toughness as a bonus feat. Bonus draconic feat: At levels 3 and 7 the dragon disciple may choose a draconic feat if he has the prereqs for it. Blindsense (ex): At 5th level the dragon disciple gains blindsense 30’. Using his acute hearing the dragon disciple notices things it cannot see. This ability does not function in areas of silence or when the dragon disciple is deafened. He usually does not need to make spot or listen checks to notice and pinpoint the location of creatures within range of his blindsense ability, provided that he has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent that the dragon disciple cannot see still has total concealment against him, and the dragon disciple still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still effects the movement of a creature with blindsense although he gets a +2 bonus on checks to navigate these hazards. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to AC against creatures it cannot see, but if he has uncanny dodge that works vs invisible creatures he is treated as being 2 levels higher for purposes of who can bypass the ability. At 10th level, the range of the ability increases to 60’. Enlargement (ex): At 5th level or thereafter the dragon disciple may permanently lose a 4th level slot to gain a single size category above his normal size. This increase does not count as a magical increase in size. Wings (ex): At 9th level the disciple gains a set of wings and a flight speed equal to his normal land speed with average maneuverability. Dragon Apotheosis: At 10th level the dragon disciple fully realizes his draconic heritage and looks just like a full blooded half-dragon. He gains the Dragon blood trait of his dragon (much like how elf blood works for half elves). He gains darkvision of 60’ and lowlight vision along with immunity to sleep and paralysis effects. In addition, he gains the elemental subtype of his dragon. The dragon disciple also gains an additional +2 to str, con, and cha. Level BAB F R W Caster levels Special 1 0 +2 +0 +2 - Breath weapon, Natural armor +1 2 1 +3 +0 +3 +1 Claws and Bite, Ability boost (str +2) 3 1 +3 +1 +3 - Toughness, bonus draconic feat 4 2 +4 +1 +4 +1 Ability boost (str +2), Natural armor +2 5 2 +4 +1 +4 - Blindsense 30’, Enlargement 6 3 +5 +2 +5 +1 Ability boost (Con +2), Toughness 7 3 +5 +2 +5 - Natural armor +3, bonus draconic feat 8 4 +6 +2 +6 +1 Ability boost (int +2) 9 4 +6 +3 +6 - Wings, Toughness 10 5 +7 +3 +7 +1 Blindsense 60’, dragon apotheosis Dragon Lineage (draconic) Choose a dragon type. You now associate with this dragon type. You gain a +2 bonus on sense motive and diplomacy checks when dealing with a dragon, halfdragon, or another character with the same dragon heritage. Dragon Blood (draconic) Prereq: Dragon Lineage, Draconic heritage Benefit: Gain Energy Resistance 5 to the energy type that the dragon you chose has as a breath weapon. Dragon Casting (draconic) Prereq: Any 5 other draconic feats Benefit: Add the domain spells from the domain of your dragons element to your spell list. Also, gain the spells from the domain of one of your alignment types (lawful, chaotic, good, or evil). [/size] [/QUOTE]

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