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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Derren" data-source="post: 3987718" data-attributes="member: 2518">I am currently involved in quite a debate on the 4E board about how and if dragons are able to be "big players" in the world without having magic.I think they are not but many people think otherwise, so instead of having an endless discussion without result I instead simply want to hear some examples of how this is possible.Rules:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The dragon does not have innate magic or spell like abilities. Just his claws and breath weapon. Eventual minions are allowed to use magic.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The dragon is allowed to use magic items (not custom made), but the amount of magic items should be kept to a minimum (PC loot).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Assume that dragons in this world have no inherent alignment.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The dragon must be an antagonist for good aligned PCs.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The target is a "normal" human kingdom with nobles etc.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Either use a Adult, Old or Ancient red dragon (Say in your post which one. The older the dragon the more extensive its intrigue must be).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The dragon should at least be able to influence the ruler of a big city. Leaders of powerful guilds, nobles or even kings is preferred (and for the ancient dragon required).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Dragon is the BBEG, not the minions. So the minions should not be collectively be much more powerful than the dragon. (If the minions can put together a 4 man adventurer party which can kill the dragon I consider this as too powerful).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The dragon has enemies. Expect adventurers to attack from time to time. Explain how the dragon defends itself (also include tactics like Scry&Fry or bypassing the dragons defenses and CdGing the sleeping dragon)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">!Important to me! The dragon does not live in a void. Explain where eventual minions live and where they get their food and resources from. Explain how the dragon keeps contact with his agents and people he blackmails. When the dragon uses charged magic items explain where he gets new ones.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The world is not static. Other political NPCs and maybe even the PCs have also political ambitions. Explain how the dragon can stay ahead of them (especially when those (N)PCs use magic for communication etc.)</li> </ul>I don't think that under these circumstances the dragon is able to put up a working political intrigue. Lets see if you can prove me wrong.Edit:3.5 rules. Stay core if possible but it is not required. (Expect that the enemies of the dragon use the same books as he does).The check if the minions can put together an adventuring party to slay the dragon is just my arbitrary check to test if the dragon is still "running the show" and not the dragon. Its far from perfect but at least a guideline. You are encouraged to use common sense for this. Several 20 level caster serving a CR 16 dragon is a little unrealistic.Also, take into account how long it takes for a message from the dragon to travel to one of his agents or victims and how long it takes for the answer to come back.</blockquote>

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