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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6061541" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>Hmmmm...this is completely an aside and has nothing to do with your efforts (of which are excellent and admirable) here. Just some clarity to the conversation. I believe there is a disconnect here with me that is common amongst the table dynamics you are depicting.</p><p></p><p>I don't like DM force or player belligerence (force) outside of the scope of mechanical resolution. This is well understood at my table. It is anathema to our playstyle and sows dysfunction now and it permeates the future as well. A player decides how he wants to play his PC but this autonomy is inexorably married to, and limited by, the PC build rules and mechanical resolution. If a curse or an effect (domination, hold, sickness, etc) interfaces with these PC build rules, and that interface dictates that absolute autonomy of PC authorship of its respective fiction is perturbed, then the player is obliged (by the rules of the game and the Social Contract at the table) to comply. If not, then what is the point of the rules and the social contract (which are the primary dictators of a role-playing game)? If something (supernatural or mundane), (i) attacks your "absolute autonomy of PC rendering", (ii) and does so within the rules, (iii) and there is mechanical resolution to undo this, then there is no infringement up "PC agency". The rules have fairly and dispassionately spoken...they say you are paranoid...your Will and Charisma have wavered and you suffer these effects...but you can reassert your absolute autonomy by these means of mechanical resolution (successful Charisma checks * buffed by Endurance). If you choose to be a bad sport (and I unmovingly call it being a bad sport to not comply) then that is on you for sowing that belligerent dysfunction and rendering the color of the game incoherent. Nonetheless, the mechanics still stand. Paranoid/cursed/diseased, etc equals this effect upon you and you have these means to undo it. </p><p></p><p>Beyond that, we may be talking about the Martial/Supernatural divide. Does your table have an issue with mundane effects upon another creatures will or well being ("Warlords shouting wounds closed" or CaGI)? This seems to be a common source of discord amongst 4e detractors and some folks playing 4e (and liking it) even have this issue. The appeal to, and leveraging of, the metagame aspects of the system are "jarring" to them as they expect to stay in 1st person author-stance as PCs and are averse to any reference to the curtain or the man behind it (2e proliferated this table dogma).</p><p></p><p>If you need to, you could just color/fluff it as "you can feel the weight of a powerful force, perhaps the dragon...perhaps the mountain itself, observing your every move, every breath, and planning...plotting your demise." Supernatural. Would they be more inclined to accept the infringement upon their absolute autonomy at that point?</p><p></p><p>That is just a bit of curiosity for me.</p><p></p><p>Regardless, I'm sure you will do right by your table and its attendant dynamics/philosophy.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 6061541, member: 6696971"] Hmmmm...this is completely an aside and has nothing to do with your efforts (of which are excellent and admirable) here. Just some clarity to the conversation. I believe there is a disconnect here with me that is common amongst the table dynamics you are depicting. I don't like DM force or player belligerence (force) outside of the scope of mechanical resolution. This is well understood at my table. It is anathema to our playstyle and sows dysfunction now and it permeates the future as well. A player decides how he wants to play his PC but this autonomy is inexorably married to, and limited by, the PC build rules and mechanical resolution. If a curse or an effect (domination, hold, sickness, etc) interfaces with these PC build rules, and that interface dictates that absolute autonomy of PC authorship of its respective fiction is perturbed, then the player is obliged (by the rules of the game and the Social Contract at the table) to comply. If not, then what is the point of the rules and the social contract (which are the primary dictators of a role-playing game)? If something (supernatural or mundane), (i) attacks your "absolute autonomy of PC rendering", (ii) and does so within the rules, (iii) and there is mechanical resolution to undo this, then there is no infringement up "PC agency". The rules have fairly and dispassionately spoken...they say you are paranoid...your Will and Charisma have wavered and you suffer these effects...but you can reassert your absolute autonomy by these means of mechanical resolution (successful Charisma checks * buffed by Endurance). If you choose to be a bad sport (and I unmovingly call it being a bad sport to not comply) then that is on you for sowing that belligerent dysfunction and rendering the color of the game incoherent. Nonetheless, the mechanics still stand. Paranoid/cursed/diseased, etc equals this effect upon you and you have these means to undo it. Beyond that, we may be talking about the Martial/Supernatural divide. Does your table have an issue with mundane effects upon another creatures will or well being ("Warlords shouting wounds closed" or CaGI)? This seems to be a common source of discord amongst 4e detractors and some folks playing 4e (and liking it) even have this issue. The appeal to, and leveraging of, the metagame aspects of the system are "jarring" to them as they expect to stay in 1st person author-stance as PCs and are averse to any reference to the curtain or the man behind it (2e proliferated this table dogma). If you need to, you could just color/fluff it as "you can feel the weight of a powerful force, perhaps the dragon...perhaps the mountain itself, observing your every move, every breath, and planning...plotting your demise." Supernatural. Would they be more inclined to accept the infringement upon their absolute autonomy at that point? That is just a bit of curiosity for me. Regardless, I'm sure you will do right by your table and its attendant dynamics/philosophy. [/QUOTE]
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