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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Flying Toaster" data-source="post: 9775342" data-attributes="member: 7052563">I had a few more late “staircase thoughts” about those weird dragon subdual rules  from the 1E Monster Manual, and about efforts to buff iconic RPG monsters so they don’t go out like chumps.  The fact that the MM has rules for subduing dragons and selling them to powerful unscrupulous NPCs on some kind of open market for guard beasts may have implications for the kind of gonzo game worlds EGG may have expected DMs to build back in 1977.  Or maybe not - they definitely feel like the kind of arcane rules for edge cases that he would get enthusiastic about writing, only to forget about them and never revisit them or use them in his home game.  I do not recall any TSR products that referred to subduing dragons, so maybe this is just one of those weird dead-end relics from the early years of D&D.I have actually thought about adapting something like those rules for use in handling other types of non-lethal (or at least less-lethal) combat against other types of foes.  I have a foggy memory of some kind of semi-official AD&D 1E rules for general non-lethal combat, buried somewhere in the back of the DMG (where no one would ever find them... <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" alt="😀" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" title="Grinning face    :grinning:" data-shortname=":grinning:" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" />).  Such rules could be used for handling jousting, duels, judicial combat, or anything else that might allow interesting interactions between the social and combat pillars of D&D or similar games.  Both PCs and NPCs might be able to challenge people to duels in order to settle disputes.  This might work well with something like the honor point rules from OA.  There would need to be some way to deter the kind of exploits that cropped up in real dueling cultures, which power gamers would definitely try to rediscover and use.In world folklore there is a long tradition of both ordinary humans and heroes outwitting dangerous foes like dragons or fey by appealing to their vanity, or by resorting to ancient honor codes which even powerful beings fear to break.  Think of how Bilbo outwits Gollum with the riddle game, which was based on Tolkien’s study of real Anglo-Saxon riddles from Old English literature.  In mythology even heroes, gods, and monsters have their power limited by various taboos, wyrds, or fates which might prove to be their undoing, and this is one way to answer world-building questions like “Why don’t all these powerful monsters just destroy civilization once and for all?”.  If your game uses crunchy knowledge skills, then this is a good way for the scholarly monk or wizard PC to recall some obscure lore to help the party win or skip an encounter.  In rules-light or OSR games which eschew many types of non-combat rules, the GM could establish some baseline lore that everyone in this setting would know, such as that perytons are weak to bronze weapons, or that orc chieftains cannot afford to refuse challenges to single combat without suffering a dangerous loss of face.  This would be a good way to reward one form of “skilled play”, i.e., paying attention to what the GM tells you...</blockquote>

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