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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ziggy" data-source="post: 2055655" data-attributes="member: 148">Sorry, but you are still wrong. I based my statement on the assumption that the character has the normal equipment and prepation of a 20th level PC, nothing Dragon-specific in there. Of course the Wizard and Cleric will have some long-lasting buffs up (Mindblank, GMW, magic Vestment, etc) but that is they way 20th level PC behave when they want to survive. For the rogue and fighter I assume nothing else than their standard equipment.A fully buffed fighter or rogue could that this dragon with one hand and their eyes closed while simultanously receiting the Elder Edda backward (pretty hard to do as a fighter, but that's what Buff's are for  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> )Unless the PC has something to trap it with the Dragon can probably escape if in the open, but that hardly qualifies as soundly beating anybody, does it ?Having played my 17th level wizard from 1st level in a campaign lasting 4 years I do have a fair idea of what the equipment of a high level party will look like. Even with the half price for selling its not hard to gain access to the most important items unless your DM is totally stingy. With Greater Teleport the largest city in the world is just one spell away, and that is not counting all the Craft Magic XXX feats. And trust me, if you don't have Freedom of movement and fly at higher levels you are just a big pile of XP for the Bad Guys. Bzzzt, wrong again. A 20th level human wizard should have an INT of at least 30 (16 base+5 level +6 item +3 inherent), and that is with a fairly low prime stat (16). He'll have a DC of 10 (base)+9 (level) + 10 (stat) = 29 for his 9th level spells. He will hit with a touch attack unless he rolls a 1, and always penetrates SR. The Dragon has saves: Fort +16, Ref +11, Will +13, thus it has 40% chance to save with its strongest save. If you target Will it has only 25% chance, and with Ref it only saves on 18+. And that is not counting spells without any save (just SR). I do agree, Dragons are tough, and more than a match for their CR (unless the party is prepared and buffed and manages to get the fight on their terms. Our party killed a CR 23 Battledragon easily bacause we were able to dictate the battlefield and choose the time (long story why). It would have creamed us in a suprise encounter, but fully buffed (everybody had at least 20 spells running before the encounter) it went down in 3 rounds). But 20th PCs are also insanely powerful, and no CR13 Dragon is a match for them unless the DM stacks the odds totally against the PC (and even naked in an antimagic field a 20th level barbarian would give the Dragon a fair fight). .Ziggy</blockquote>

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