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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Bacon Bits" data-source="post: 6594463" data-attributes="member: 6777737">I thought of another one which pretty much every DM tries at some point, particularly if there are Lawful Good party members, especially if you're playing in 3e or earlier, and doubly so if there's a Paladin in the group.  Few people try it more than once, because the situation is pretty <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> for the players, and if handled poorly can end a campaign.  I was reminded by this exchange from earlier:See, because killing and murder are a part of the game all the time, and we never think twice about it because its always monsters.  Except for one situation....Orc babies.You know the trope.  You're clearing a dungeon, and your party comes across den of orcs.  You clear them out.  You get to the last room, where you find a group of cowering orc women and children.  They're clearly non-combatants, and because of the morality system of the game they're in a Schrodinger's box where they're simultaneously irredeemably evil and purely innocent, you don't know if you should kill them or let them live.  Now the players are forced with three choices: a) kill ostensibly innocent humanoids, b) release creatures who will inevitably be evil and hostile when grown, and c) arrest everybody and give them to some legal or divine authority to sort out.DMs seem to like to add this scenario because it adds depth.  The problem is, it doesn't.  At best it deadlocks the game while the players argue.  At worst, the party stops adventuring to play prison escort.  The whole scenario is interesting to roleplay for about 5 minutes, and it inevitably takes far longer.See, the scenario requires a type of morality that the D&D game world doesn't have.  The game often says there are irredeemably evil creatures, and racial enmities which reach all the way to deities.  The real problem with the scenario is that the solution to this problem would be in Paladin Training 101.  Every character in the game world knows exactly what needs to be done in this situation, but the players often won't.  The characters know the law.  The characters know church doctrine.  Worst case scenario, the players have their god on speed dial and can ask him or her what they should do.  This situation should be a settled matter of doctrine.  The players have no idea, however, because they weren't raised in the game world and don't know what to do.  They're screwed because the DM can punish you no matter what you do by changing the way the world works after the fact.  It was especially bad when you were a 1e-3e Paladin with a code of conduct.  Now a character is faced with a no-win situation that cripples his character.  It's injecting our shaded morality which relies on the fact that everything is subjective into a world where morality is often objective because you can directly ask a true moral authority when you have questions.  In D&D, morality walks on two legs and performs miracles for creatures that worship it.  It's not like we can call up Jesus of Nazareth or Siddhartha Gautama or Muhammad or Hades or Odin or Horus or Quetzalcoatl and ask how to handle no-win sitations.  D&D characters can.  Often literally."But the Kobayashi Maru is a great test of character that requires you to expand beyond yourself and redefine your character!"F*** you, DM.  My character should already know what to do.  He or she does that.  It doesn't bother me because I'm not my character.  I wouldn't kick in someone's door, kill them, and take all their stuff.  My character did that a half a dozen times before lunch and he knows he's still in good standing with a Lawful Good deity.  I think my character and I wouldn't exactly see eye to eye on moral justifications.Collapsing the orc baby evil/innocent wave function is a <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> scenario that doesn't belong in the game.  Similarly, rape is a <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> scenario that doesn't belong in the game.  They're not interesting and, worse, they're not fun.</blockquote>

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