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Message: <blockquote data-quote="mneme" data-source="post: 4293495" data-attributes="member: 59248">MAD about PaladinsLurker: re OA: oh, yeah.  Er, didn't I mention this? Biggest problem a Cha-based Paladin has is crap OAs; if they could take an at-will that was a basic Cha-based melee attack with no specials, they'd take it every time (and were I running, I'd probably add it to the list; it's a perfectly balanced power that fits the archetype).The level 9 problem isn't -that- much of a problem for a Str-based Pally.  Actually, check that; yes; yes it is.  From levels 1-14, there are only two Str dailies--Paladin's Judgement and Martyr's Retribution.  So the Str Paladin is stuck spending two feats multiclassing (almost certainly -- to Ranger or Fighter, likely.  Maybe Cleric?) or having to load a Chr daily she can't afford to maintain.There's another MAD issue with the Paladin, now that I think on it.  The Paladin is all about healing surges.  I mean, really -- the Paladin's a defender, which means she takes hits and needs to be healed (spend healing surges), plus she has the ability to spend her healing surges to heal someone else, plus she has powers like Martyr's Retribution (which costs a healing surge for an above-level attack), Bloodied Retribution (Good attack, but requires that you need a healing surge -- and lets you spend one), and Death Ward (costs a healing surge for good, level-scaled, but limited healing...heh; I can so totally see a paladin and a rogue (or anyone, but it's funnier with a rogue) teaming up to "heal" a badly wounded comerade.  "ok, you hit him.  Once he's dying, I'll heal him up nicely before he's at risk!").  So there's good reason for a Paladin to want a high-constitution; they -do- stuff with their healing surges, even if they don't take all that much damage due to the ability to wear Plate at first level (and FWIW, I totally disagree that the paladin wants to be beat on; due to the healing surge mechanic, -nobody- can tank for the party in 4e.  The paladin wants to put the enemy in a "damned if I do, damned if I don't" position; ideally one where some enemies bounce off the Pally's armor, and others attack friends and get zapped by the Paladin's Divine Challenge; remember, the Challenge is strictly worse than the Fighter's challenge if it never does damage).  However, the Paladin only has one more Surge than the fighter does, and has no use other for constitution (unless she's a Dragonborn) other than HP and feats (and that need is drastically reduced by starting with Plate).So a Paladin wants Str (for OAs, if nothing else) Con (for extra healing surges, if nothing else), one of Dex or Int (for reflex defense/init.  Or more likely, you get a paladin with the same Achilles heel as every other paladin, as init isn't really that important for the paladin and bumping a ref/AC stat -just- for reflex defense is a bad idea), Wis (for lay on hands and boosting nearly every Paladin power) and Chas (for Divine Challenge, if nothing else).All that said, the Paladin is still a pretty cool class, capable of doing defense, minion killing, good damage, healing and buffing.I suppose you might say that the Paladin has stayed true to her roots in 3.5 -- as the most MAD class there is.</blockquote>

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