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[Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defenders?
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<blockquote data-quote="SehanineMoonbow" data-source="post: 8124670" data-attributes="member: 7025612"><p>I have read through more of this thread now (though not all of it), and rather than multi-quoting, I’m just going to share more thoughts I have after reading some of the comments.</p><p></p><p>I’ve always been a fan of the gods. They enrich the setting for me, and again, the lack of deities is why I haven’t really explored settings like Dark Sun. But, as I think I mentioned above, and as I can see by comments here (and elsewhere over the years) the Wall is often presented as the main reason people hate the gods. I agree that the Wall is…not great. I do think ending up on the Wall is a rare occurrence, as you would have to really flip all of the deities the bird. Sure, it’s a well-built wall now, but it’s been built up over a long period of time.</p><p></p><p>I don’t think most Faerunians feel forced to worship a deity (with exceptions like Lolth). You have a plethora to choose from, and praying to them would probably be second nature to most. This doesn’t mean everyone is “religious” in the way we would think of the term, but acknowledgement, a whispered prayer, and paying respects to a deity or two is likely commonplace. This is probably a bad and silly analogy, but it’s like food. We all need to eat to survive, but we can choose the food we eat.</p><p></p><p>That said, while I’ve always been a deity fan (in fantasy in general, not just D&D) I can understand the argument that the Wall makes all deities look like tyrants. Kelemvor tried to get rid of it, but was stopped, and since then, he seems to have become more enforcing of it. It existed before the gods required worship for power (as that wasn’t mandated until after the Time of Troubles), IIRC, and Myrkul may have made it to further instill fear. It’s been a long time since I’ve read the Avatar series, but it’s existence a<em>fter </em>the Time of Troubles makes more sense than it does <em>before. </em>But, with the gods being quieter in 5e (well, except perhaps Auril), and taking a step back, maybe they’re doing away with the Wall. But they still require worship for power, as far as I know, so the stepping back doesn’t really make sense to me, either, Wall or no Wall. Again, it's been a long time since I've read the <em>Avatar </em>series, but this is being discussed in several platforms, and some have mentioned that in place of the Wall of the Faithless, Kelemvor had created a Wall of Mirrors or something, and you look in the mirrors, and it shows the soul their deeds (so, if you're a bad dude, you're gonna have to face that). But this apparently didn't last, and the WotF has been the MO. </p><p></p><p>Someone (I think it was Chaosmancer) earlier asked about non-human souls. While I don’t actually have a direct canonical sources or evidence for this, the Wall seems to be made mostly of human souls. Elves, for example, I think go to directly to Arvandor—it seems that way in novels, and source books hinted at it, too. The call to Arvandor is very strong, so it seems to me most elven spirits bypass the Fugue Plane, unless they specifically worshiped outside the Seldarine. I’m not sure about the other races/species, but Kelemvor is part of the Faerunian pantheon, which is largely human, though of course other races/species can and do worship them. The lore is blurry here, as it has sometimes been indicated that <em>all </em>souls go to the Fugue Plane, where they await their deity (or agent of the deity), where others—mostly novels—sometimes hint that some races/species bypass the Fugue Plane. But then again, there was a scene in <em>War of the Spider Queen,</em> where drow souls were waiting on the Fugue Plane, and the MC in the short story “Necessary Sacrifices” ended up on the Fugue Plane, so…<em>shrugs</em> A bit convoluted.</p><p></p><p>In any case, 5e is vague about so many things—sometimes I think they’re taking the interpretation and “up to you”, too far. Detail has never stopped gamers from using their imagination. As I mentioned in my previous comment, having an established afterlife is an important aspect of fantasy for me. I’m not particularly religious irl, but I love the esoterica stuff in fantasy. I think it adds dimension—after all, we have everything else: magic, elves, dragons, liches, etc. I don’t have much issue with them getting rid of the Wall, but I do take issue with the continued vagueness. Simply erasing a sentence in something that is only a paragraph anyway doesn’t really rectify much, especially if they’re keeping the part about unclaimed souls being larvae. That’s not any better. If they do away with the Wall, I want an explanation of how/why, and what happens to those souls instead. Do they go to the plane that is best suited to them? Does Kelemvor judge them based solely on their deeds, and then send them to the appropriate place? The dead are important to the gods, too, right? So if a soul was given to a deity, even if they didn't worship that deity, would still end up being beneficial, I would think. Deities want to have petitioners fill their realms and spend eternity there, so I don't think a deity would turn away a soul, unless it was a benevolent deity turning away an evil soul, but if they were sent to the appropriate plane, that is unlikely to happen.</p><p></p><p>There is a a Drizzt book that comes out next year, and the last part of the summary says this: [SPOILER]“Drizzt seeks answers that could offer salvation to not just his soul, but <em>all </em>souls. And no matter the outcome of either journey, the Realms will never be the same again” RAS tends to do his own thing, but after this revelation, I can’t help but wonder if there is some tie-in.[/SPOILER]</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="SehanineMoonbow, post: 8124670, member: 7025612"] I have read through more of this thread now (though not all of it), and rather than multi-quoting, I’m just going to share more thoughts I have after reading some of the comments. I’ve always been a fan of the gods. They enrich the setting for me, and again, the lack of deities is why I haven’t really explored settings like Dark Sun. But, as I think I mentioned above, and as I can see by comments here (and elsewhere over the years) the Wall is often presented as the main reason people hate the gods. I agree that the Wall is…not great. I do think ending up on the Wall is a rare occurrence, as you would have to really flip all of the deities the bird. Sure, it’s a well-built wall now, but it’s been built up over a long period of time. I don’t think most Faerunians feel forced to worship a deity (with exceptions like Lolth). You have a plethora to choose from, and praying to them would probably be second nature to most. This doesn’t mean everyone is “religious” in the way we would think of the term, but acknowledgement, a whispered prayer, and paying respects to a deity or two is likely commonplace. This is probably a bad and silly analogy, but it’s like food. We all need to eat to survive, but we can choose the food we eat. That said, while I’ve always been a deity fan (in fantasy in general, not just D&D) I can understand the argument that the Wall makes all deities look like tyrants. Kelemvor tried to get rid of it, but was stopped, and since then, he seems to have become more enforcing of it. It existed before the gods required worship for power (as that wasn’t mandated until after the Time of Troubles), IIRC, and Myrkul may have made it to further instill fear. It’s been a long time since I’ve read the Avatar series, but it’s existence a[I]fter [/I]the Time of Troubles makes more sense than it does [I]before. [/I]But, with the gods being quieter in 5e (well, except perhaps Auril), and taking a step back, maybe they’re doing away with the Wall. But they still require worship for power, as far as I know, so the stepping back doesn’t really make sense to me, either, Wall or no Wall. Again, it's been a long time since I've read the [I]Avatar [/I]series, but this is being discussed in several platforms, and some have mentioned that in place of the Wall of the Faithless, Kelemvor had created a Wall of Mirrors or something, and you look in the mirrors, and it shows the soul their deeds (so, if you're a bad dude, you're gonna have to face that). But this apparently didn't last, and the WotF has been the MO. Someone (I think it was Chaosmancer) earlier asked about non-human souls. While I don’t actually have a direct canonical sources or evidence for this, the Wall seems to be made mostly of human souls. Elves, for example, I think go to directly to Arvandor—it seems that way in novels, and source books hinted at it, too. The call to Arvandor is very strong, so it seems to me most elven spirits bypass the Fugue Plane, unless they specifically worshiped outside the Seldarine. I’m not sure about the other races/species, but Kelemvor is part of the Faerunian pantheon, which is largely human, though of course other races/species can and do worship them. The lore is blurry here, as it has sometimes been indicated that [I]all [/I]souls go to the Fugue Plane, where they await their deity (or agent of the deity), where others—mostly novels—sometimes hint that some races/species bypass the Fugue Plane. But then again, there was a scene in [I]War of the Spider Queen,[/I] where drow souls were waiting on the Fugue Plane, and the MC in the short story “Necessary Sacrifices” ended up on the Fugue Plane, so…[I]shrugs[/I] A bit convoluted. In any case, 5e is vague about so many things—sometimes I think they’re taking the interpretation and “up to you”, too far. Detail has never stopped gamers from using their imagination. As I mentioned in my previous comment, having an established afterlife is an important aspect of fantasy for me. I’m not particularly religious irl, but I love the esoterica stuff in fantasy. I think it adds dimension—after all, we have everything else: magic, elves, dragons, liches, etc. I don’t have much issue with them getting rid of the Wall, but I do take issue with the continued vagueness. Simply erasing a sentence in something that is only a paragraph anyway doesn’t really rectify much, especially if they’re keeping the part about unclaimed souls being larvae. That’s not any better. If they do away with the Wall, I want an explanation of how/why, and what happens to those souls instead. Do they go to the plane that is best suited to them? Does Kelemvor judge them based solely on their deeds, and then send them to the appropriate place? The dead are important to the gods, too, right? So if a soul was given to a deity, even if they didn't worship that deity, would still end up being beneficial, I would think. Deities want to have petitioners fill their realms and spend eternity there, so I don't think a deity would turn away a soul, unless it was a benevolent deity turning away an evil soul, but if they were sent to the appropriate plane, that is unlikely to happen. There is a a Drizzt book that comes out next year, and the last part of the summary says this: [SPOILER]“Drizzt seeks answers that could offer salvation to not just his soul, but [I]all [/I]souls. And no matter the outcome of either journey, the Realms will never be the same again” RAS tends to do his own thing, but after this revelation, I can’t help but wonder if there is some tie-in.[/SPOILER] [/QUOTE]
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[Dragonlance/Faerun] Anyone here met any Cataclysm/Wall of the Faithless defenders?
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