Dragons

[thomian]

Does any one have any rules on the market price of Dragon eggs or Wyrmlings?

As a reference, the Monster Manual states that a Psudodragon egg is worth 10,000gp and a hatchling 20,000gp but I was hoping someone had something on dragons.

--
Thomian - who has a PC holding a Dragon egg wondering how much he can get for it.

 

[Anubis]

Go with (CR+1)^2 x 10,000 gp.

Doing this, however, you need the correct CRs. If you use the CRs in the book, any dragons more powerful than Adult or Mature Adult will wipe out your parties without a problem, unless of course you don't play dragons correctly and/or use Harm as it is. (For example, an Ancient Brown Dragon is supposed to be CR 20. Put against a Level 20 party, though, the dragon will win EVERY TIME unless you fail to play the dragon by it's intelligence or allow Harm as it is. I know this because I've seen it happen and tested this numerous times.)

Anyway, modified CRs are as follows:

Dragon Size : CR

Tiny Dragons : HD - 2
Small Dragons : HD - 1
Medium-Size Dragons : HD
Large Dragons : HD + 1
Huge Dragons : HD + 2
Gargantuan Dragon : HD + 3
Colossal Dragon : HD + 4
Colossal+ Dragon : HD + 5

So, for example, lets take a Mature Adult Red Dragon. The book gives it CR 17. If you put this thing up against a Level 17 party, however, your players will soon be rolling up new characters. The reason? Well, the CR is actually MUCH higher. It has 25 HD and is Huge, and going by the above table, the Mature Adult Red Dragon is actually CR 27.

Now, using this formula, you can calculate the CR of any dragon in seconds! Also using those numbers, how much would that dragon cost to buy? Well, with CR 27 . . .

(27 + 1) ^ 2 x 10000 = 7,840,000 gp

Okay, that's not likely to happen. Who's gonna catch one of those things? Besides, you asked for the price of eggs or Wyrmlings . . .

Okay, the CR of a Wyrmling Red Dragon is . . . 7 HD, Medium-Size, CR 7. A lot higher than that CR 3 in the book, eh? Anyway, the price for it would be:

(7 + 1) ^ 2 x 10000 = 640,000 gp

Now there is more to the CR thing, mainly that these numbers are actually what I call EPR or Effective Power Rating . . . Take a look at the gigantic thread started by me called "Upper Krust, Where Are You?" for more, because it's complex, and there are several theories. However, for determining this, use EPR, which I'll call CR until you've seen the rest (unless you already have).

Basically, CR doesn't go up as fast, and the EPR is used to figure it out . . .

Know how much a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon is?

78 HD, Colossal+, EPR 83 (CR 40)

(83 + 1) ^ 2 x 10000 = 70,560,000 gp

Hehehe . . . I couldn't help myself . . .

OH! For eggs, just use half the price of Wyrmlings. Hope I've helped!

 

[Spatzimaus]

This is something I consider to be a failure in the rules.

Sentient, intelligent (INT >3) creatures should not be tameable just by using a simple Handle Animal check, no matter what DC you set.

Giant Eagles and Giant Owls are the primary examples. They're intelligent, they can choose not to follow any "orders" you give them. Conditioned-response only goes so far; realistically, you'll have to convince them to help you. The same would apply for Dragons; okay, you raised him from birth, but by the time he's Young he's probably smarter than you are, how exactly are you going to force him to carry you into combat?

Personally I just say that anything with INT over 3 can't be a mount, it's a Cohort requiring the Leadership Feat. (Paladin mounts excluded, of course.)

 

[Fade]

A free agonizing death from a relative of your choice.

 

[Marshall]

Know how much a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon is?

78 HD, Colossal+, EPR 83 (CR 40)

(83 + 1) ^ 2 x 10000 = 70,560,000 gp

Hehehe . . . I couldn't help myself . . .

OH! For eggs, just use half the price of Wyrmlings. Hope I've helped!

Dude, One(1) 83rd level Char, any class. Will wipe the floor with a great wyrm pris.

Not that the CR is correct either, but there isnt a generic system that can account for all the variables needed to determine a reasonable CR without a spreadsheet and at least 20 min.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Dragon Size : CR

Tiny Dragons : HD - 2
Small Dragons : HD - 1
Medium-Size Dragons : HD
Large Dragons : HD + 1
Huge Dragons : HD + 2
Gargantuan Dragon : HD + 3
Colossal Dragon : HD + 4
Colossal+ Dragon : HD + 5

So a young black dragon (HD 10d12+20, Medium-size) is CR 10 under your system? It's listed as CR 4 in the MM, and the 'traditional' hack puts it at CR 6.

*****

Let's compare the young black dragon to some CR 10s in the MM:

Fire giant: 142 hit points, AC 21, +20/+15/+10 (2d8+15), reach
YBD: 85 hit points, AC 19, +12 (1d8+2), +7/+7 (1d6+1), +7/+7 (1d4+1)

AC.....Giant's damage / dragon's damage
10.....3.3
15.....3.9
20.....5.2
25.....7.9
30...12.2

The two creatures have near-identical mental stats. The dragon has special abilities, but none are effective at range except its breath weapon (out to 60 feet) -- the giant is effective to greater distances with its rocks, which deal much more damage (72 if all hit, compared to 15 if the Reflex save is failed vs. the breath weapon). The giant has more feats.

The only real advantage the dragon has is flight.

*****

The CR 9 greater air elemental , perhaps, is the better comparison because of its own flight.

GAE: 178 hit points, AC 26, +23/+18/+13 (2d8+7)
YBD: 85 hit points, AC 19, +12 (1d8+2), +7/+7 (1d6+1), +7/+7 (1d4+1)

AC.....GAE damage / dragon's damage
10.....2.2
15.....2.8
20.....3.9
25.....6.7
30...12.2

The dragon has 4 more Int than the elemental. The dragon has some special abilities, but none are as good as the air elemental's DR and immunities (as well as reach). The dragon's breath weapon is an advantage, but 15/7.5/0 damage (depending on the Reflex save and evasion) make it a nonissue.

 

[Anubis]

This is something I consider to be a failure in the rules.

Sentient, intelligent (INT >3) creatures should not be tameable just by using a simple Handle Animal check, no matter what DC you set.

Giant Eagles and Giant Owls are the primary examples. They're intelligent, they can choose not to follow any "orders" you give them. Conditioned-response only goes so far; realistically, you'll have to convince them to help you. The same would apply for Dragons; okay, you raised him from birth, but by the time he's Young he's probably smarter than you are, how exactly are you going to force him to carry you into combat?

Personally I just say that anything with INT over 3 can't be a mount, it's a Cohort requiring the Leadership Feat. (Paladin mounts excluded, of course.)

I would say it's not as much "taming" as it is "befriending", because dragons are not animals, they're superior to humans! No, it's more of a befriending, although I MIGHT allow using Handle Animal IF the book SPECIFICALLY says that it's allowed.

[Finally able to post again! WHOOOOOOO!]

 

[Anubis]

Dude, One(1) 83rd level Char, any class. Will wipe the floor with a great wyrm pris.

Not that the CR is correct either, but there isnt a generic system that can account for all the variables needed to determine a reasonable CR without a spreadsheet and at least 20 min.

A single 83rd-level character would have only a 50/50 chance according to UK's numbers, but I question even that. You obviously have never used a Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon in the game, and if you have, you probably didn't play him correctly. The Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon is the single most powerful monster yet released by WotC. I guarantee that the Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon will win the fight a good majority of the time.

Like I said, though, the character technically has about a 50/50 chance. It would take an entire PARTY of Level 83 characters to be able to take on the Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon using about 20% of the party's resources.

UK would argue even that I'm still underestimating the Great Wyrm Prismatic Dragon, actually.

 

[Anubis]

So a young black dragon (HD 10d12+20, Medium-size) is CR 10 under your system? It's listed as CR 4 in the MM, and the 'traditional' hack puts it at CR 6.

*****

Let's compare the young black dragon to some CR 10s in the MM:

Fire giant: 142 hit points, AC 21, +20/+15/+10 (2d8+15), reach
YBD: 85 hit points, AC 19, +12 (1d8+2), +7/+7 (1d6+1), +7/+7 (1d4+1)

AC.....Giant's damage / dragon's damage
10.....3.3
15.....3.9
20.....5.2
25.....7.9
30...12.2

The two creatures have near-identical mental stats. The dragon has special abilities, but none are effective at range except its breath weapon (out to 60 feet) -- the giant is effective to greater distances with its rocks, which deal much more damage (72 if all hit, compared to 15 if the Reflex save is failed vs. the breath weapon). The giant has more feats.

The only real advantage the dragon has is flight.

*****

The CR 9 greater air elemental , perhaps, is the better comparison because of its own flight.

GAE: 178 hit points, AC 26, +23/+18/+13 (2d8+7)
YBD: 85 hit points, AC 19, +12 (1d8+2), +7/+7 (1d6+1), +7/+7 (1d4+1)

AC.....GAE damage / dragon's damage
10.....2.2
15.....2.8
20.....3.9
25.....6.7
30...12.2

The dragon has 4 more Int than the elemental. The dragon has some special abilities, but none are as good as the air elemental's DR and immunities (as well as reach). The dragon's breath weapon is an advantage, but 15/7.5/0 damage (depending on the Reflex save and evasion) make it a nonissue.

How many times do I gotta say this? You CAN'T compare the power of monsters by seeing how they stand up to each other in a fight! Different monsters have different ranges of effectiveness. You compare monsters of similar CR to similar parties, not to each other.

A Young Black Dragon may not be able to stand up to a Fire Giant, but the same dragon COULD stand up pretty good to a Level 10 party, depending on the feats the dragon has. Between the breath weapon and the feats Hover, Power Attack, and Ability Focus (breath weapon), the dragon would be a challenge that could easily use up 20% of a party's resources.

By your example, a Clay Golem should be a much higher CR, seeing as the Fire Giant would hardly be able to touch it AT ALL. A Clay Golem can beat a Fire Giant, and a Fire Giant can beat a Young Red Dragon, but they're all CR 10. Another example is a Wight fighting a Juvenile Arrowhawk. Both are CR 3, but the Juvenile Arrowhawk would likely win every single time. It's all about the abilities.

On another note, however, due to power differentials, I'm considering seperate modifiers for Chromatic, Gem, and Metallica Dragons that would set the Young Black Dragon at CR 9. Still close, though. People need to stop comparing monsters to each other!

 

[CRGreathouse]

How many times do I gotta say this?

Don't patronize.

How many times do I gotta say this? You CAN'T compare the power of monsters by seeing how they stand up to each other in a fight! Different monsters have different ranges of effectiveness. You compare monsters of similar CR to similar parties, not to each other.

I didn't once state that the CR was based on a fight between the two. I was showing that creatures of the same or lower CR would be harder in all ways for a party to fight.

If monster X has 100 hit points and is CR 10, then an otherwise-identical monster Y with 50 hit points is less of a challenge, no?

By your example, a Clay Golem should be a much higher CR, seeing as the Fire Giant would hardly be able to touch it AT ALL.

This isn't my example, it's a straw man. I never said the two monsters should fight to determine CR.

On another note, however, due to power differentials, I'm considering seperate modifiers for Chromatic, Gem, and Metallica Dragons that would set the Young Black Dragon at CR 9.

Well, that may be closer. I'd have to hit the books before challenging that; it's certainly an improvement.

I'll wait to see your new system before discussing the finer points of the current one.

People need to stop comparing monsters to each other!

Certainly not! If two monsters are similar, they should have similar CRs. This isn't based on a fight between the two, of course; it's based on how much the changes from the existing monster would affect a party.