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<blockquote data-quote="tetrasodium" data-source="post: 9652259" data-attributes="member: 93670">Every time I see someone express this sentiment I feel the desire to comment about the fact that few tables are one gm one player and ask &quot;fun for who?&quot;&nbsp; That's a serious question that deserves an answer and not a rhetorical jab.If I have a table with 4-5 players and three or more are making two or three attacks each round with the occasional four to six attack surge while excessively dragging out their turn trying to get a life check after each attack so they can even further drag it out dithering about where to move between attacks so they can possibly change weapons while attacking some other monster it leaves me the gm in an awful situation.&nbsp; It's awful because for each turn like that I have three to four players doing nothing but twiddling their thumbs the whole time those four to five multi attack/dual wielding PCs are taking their turn and one or two with a turn that's over so fast that you could blink and miss it because don't even have the option of dragging it out by any means other than not looking up a spell or something in the 10-20+ minutes of thumb twiddling since their last turn.To answer the OP's question 5e poisoned the well by getting rid of the iterative attack penalty in what is still pretty much a d20 fork with extra reasons added to need it that vis still built for groups with multiple players... But you can fix it.&nbsp; That&nbsp; iterative attack penalty was important because the later attacks are over quickly with &quot;yea that misses&quot; and players are less concerned about trying to life check monsters or move around multiple times on their turn.While the iterative attack penalty was baked into the BaB tables rather than an easily quotable rule, pf2 has it baked in with an easily quotable rule with the <a href="https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2289&amp;Redirected=1" target="_blank">MAP penalty</a>... Once again though 5e poisons the well with &quot;simplicity and you need to shift it from a penalty for attacks beyond the first to an ac bonus or (ime) many players will &quot;forget&quot; or decide that they have some loophole ability that is exempt and it's almost impossible to monitor as a gm.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="tetrasodium, post: 9652259, member: 93670"] Every time I see someone express this sentiment I feel the desire to comment about the fact that few tables are one gm one player and ask "[B]fun for [/B][I][B][U]who[/U][/B][/I]?" That's a serious question that deserves an answer and not a rhetorical jab. If I have a table with 4-5 players and three or more are making two or three attacks each round with the occasional four to six attack surge while excessively dragging out their turn trying to get a life check after each attack so they can even further drag it out dithering about where to move between attacks so they can possibly change weapons while attacking some other monster it leaves me the gm in an awful situation. It's awful because for each turn like that I have three to four players doing nothing but twiddling their thumbs the whole time those four to five multi attack/dual wielding PCs are taking their turn and one or two with a turn that's over so fast that you could blink and miss it because don't even have the option of dragging it out by any means other than not looking up a spell or something in the 10-20+ minutes of thumb twiddling since their last turn. To answer the OP's question 5e poisoned the well by getting rid of the iterative attack penalty in what is still pretty much a d20 fork with extra reasons added to need it that vis still built for groups with multiple players... But you can fix it. That iterative attack penalty was important because the later attacks are over quickly with "yea that misses" and players are less concerned about trying to life check monsters or move around multiple times on their turn. While the iterative attack penalty was baked into the BaB tables rather than an easily quotable rule, pf2 has it baked in with an easily quotable rule with the [URL='https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=2289&Redirected=1']MAP penalty[/URL]... Once again though 5e poisons the well with "simplicity and you need to shift it from a penalty for attacks beyond the first to an ac bonus or (ime) many players will "forget" or decide that they have some loophole ability that is exempt and it's almost impossible to monitor as a gm. [/QUOTE]

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