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<blockquote data-quote="innerdude" data-source="post: 6085807" data-attributes="member: 85870">I've been mulling over this idea in my head for some time now, and finally figured, &quot;What the heck? Let's throw it out into the wild.&quot; And the idea is this: D&amp;D is great at generating &quot;stories&quot; but frequently problematic at generating &quot;narratives.&quot; Obviously some explanation is needed about just what I mean when I say &quot;story&quot; versus &quot;narrative.&quot; As I'm defining it here, a &quot;story&quot; is nothing more than a sequence of chronological events, that when taken together, form a complete arc---a beginning, middle, and end. The players are put into situation X, perform actions Y, and the results of actions Y become a &quot;story,&quot; i.e., &quot;We did this, and here's what happened as a result.&quot; The &quot;story&quot; grows as each successive bits of action move forward in time. A story might be something like, &quot;I got in my car this morning, but it wouldn't start. I realized that I had left the lights on and it needed a jumpstart. So I did that, then drove to the bank, where I stood in line for a long time, before finally heading home to work in the yard.&quot; A narrative, on the the other hand, incorporates the same action sequence as a story but also makes specific inferences and judgments about the value, &quot;rightness&quot; or &quot;wrongness&quot; of the things that happened. For example, in our same story about going to the bank, a narrative might mention the fact that the reason the protagonist had to stand in line for so long was because the man in front of him or her was an older gentleman who exhibited a lack of formal education, and required lengthy explanations from the bank teller for each step of the transaction. &quot;And I wondered as I stood there--what would lead a man of his age to make his way through life lacking some of these fundamental life skills? How had the education system failed him? Was it right for me to feel upset with him for inconveniencing me and wasting my valuable time? Or should I have felt empathy for him, and recognized in him something of an object lesson, a reminder of why I valued my education so highly, and felt blessed, somehow, that I had been given something precious this man did not possess?&quot; When I'm talking about narrative, this is the sort of thing I mean--basic reflection, consideration of the deeper meaning or values being carried out through the actions as they happen. In my experience RPGs are EXCELLENT vehicles for generating &quot;story&quot;--players are constantly &quot;doing&quot; stuff, then piecing together the resulting sequence of results. But I wonder if there are ways to make RPGs (and Dungeons and Dragons in particular) more capable of engaging players in creating narrative--or if RPGs as an entertainment genre are not fully suited to narrative-building as I've outlined it here.&nbsp; Now for some players, GMs, and groups, this is not even a consideration. You're there to have fun, roll some dice, pretend to be a hero, and earn some reward. Having any sort of &quot;narrative&quot; considerations beyond the &quot;story&quot; of kicking butt and taking names isn't really part of the equation. But I guess the question for me is, is D&amp;D uniquely suited or unsuited for this kind of &quot;narrative building&quot;? I recognize that GNS theory's definition of &quot;narrativism&quot; as a creative agenda is very similar to this. The goal for &quot;narrativist&quot; games is to push these kinds of &quot;themes,&quot; or &quot;moral dilemmas,&quot; to the forefront of gameplay. The goal isn't necessarily to &quot;play a character,&quot; or even for the character's actions to move a &quot;story&quot; forward, but to actually drive gameplay towards events that bring forth these kinds of questions, and then let the players potentially find interesting answers to them through interacting with the world / milieu. And maybe I just don't have enough experience with any truly &quot;narrative&quot; systems to go on. I've read through several iterations of the FATE engine (and own Legends of Anglerre), but have no way to compare how it actually works in play versus more &quot;traditional&quot; gamist / simulationist systems. I've never played any of the more &quot;avant garde&quot; Forge stuff (Dogs in the Vineyard, Sorceror, etc.) to compare them to D&amp;D either. Is building this kind of thing into D&amp;D even on most group's radar, or is it kind of in the more &quot;out there&quot; realm? Do &quot;narrative&quot; experiences make gameplay more compelling, or resonate with players more, or is it mostly inconsequential to the other objectives of &quot;fun&quot;?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="innerdude, post: 6085807, member: 85870"] I've been mulling over this idea in my head for some time now, and finally figured, "What the heck? Let's throw it out into the wild." And the idea is this: [I] D&D is great at generating "stories" but frequently problematic at generating "narratives." [/I] Obviously some explanation is needed about just what I mean when I say "story" versus "narrative." As I'm defining it here, a "story" is nothing more than a sequence of chronological events, that when taken together, form a complete arc---a beginning, middle, and end. The players are put into situation X, perform actions Y, and the results of actions Y become a "story," i.e., "We did this, and here's what happened as a result." The "story" grows as each successive bits of action move forward in time. A story might be something like, "I got in my car this morning, but it wouldn't start. I realized that I had left the lights on and it needed a jumpstart. So I did that, then drove to the bank, where I stood in line for a long time, before finally heading home to work in the yard." A [I]narrative[/I], on the the other hand, incorporates the same action sequence as a story [I]but also makes specific inferences and judgments about the value, "rightness" or "wrongness" of the things that happened. [/I] For example, in our same story about going to the bank, a [I]narrative[/I] might mention the fact that the reason the protagonist had to stand in line for so long was because the man in front of him or her was an older gentleman who exhibited a lack of formal education, and required lengthy explanations from the bank teller for each step of the transaction. "And I wondered as I stood there--what would lead a man of his age to make his way through life lacking some of these fundamental life skills? How had the education system failed him? Was it right for me to feel upset with him for inconveniencing me and wasting my valuable time? Or should I have felt empathy for him, and recognized in him something of an object lesson, a reminder of why I valued my education so highly, and felt blessed, somehow, that I had been given something precious this man did not possess?" When I'm talking about [I]narrative[/I], this is the sort of thing I mean--basic reflection, consideration of the deeper [I]meaning[/I] or [I]values[/I] being carried out through the actions as they happen. In my experience RPGs are EXCELLENT vehicles for generating "story"--players are constantly "doing" stuff, then piecing together the resulting sequence of results. But I wonder if there are ways to make RPGs (and Dungeons and Dragons in particular) more capable of engaging players in creating [I]narrative[/I]--or if RPGs as an entertainment genre are not fully suited to narrative-building as I've outlined it here. Now for some players, GMs, and groups, this is not even a consideration. You're there to have fun, roll some dice, pretend to be a hero, and earn some reward. Having any sort of "narrative" considerations beyond the "story" of kicking butt and taking names isn't really part of the equation. But I guess the question for me is, is D&D uniquely suited or unsuited for this kind of "narrative building"? I recognize that GNS theory's definition of "narrativism" as a creative agenda is very similar to this. The goal for "narrativist" games is to push these kinds of "themes," or "moral dilemmas," to the forefront of gameplay. The goal isn't necessarily to "play a character," or even for the character's actions to move a "story" forward, but to actually drive gameplay towards events that bring forth these kinds of questions, and then let the players potentially find interesting answers to them through interacting with the world / milieu. And maybe I just don't have enough experience with any truly "narrative" systems to go on. I've read through several iterations of the FATE engine (and own Legends of Anglerre), but have no way to compare how it actually works in play versus more "traditional" gamist / simulationist systems. I've never played any of the more "avant garde" Forge stuff (Dogs in the Vineyard, Sorceror, etc.) to compare them to D&D either. Is building this kind of thing into D&D even on most group's radar, or is it kind of in the more "out there" realm? Do "narrative" experiences make gameplay more compelling, or resonate with players more, or is it mostly inconsequential to the other objectives of "fun"? [/QUOTE]

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