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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hammerhead" data-source="post: 240135" data-attributes="member: 73">Dispels and Antimagic effects will mess up your fighting clerics.  While they can also prove problematic to a fighter, the impact is much less since they have bonuses from feats instead of from magic.Also, clerics need a free hand to cast spells.  Unless they have something like a glove of storing, it's hard to fight and cast spells.  When my cleric had to choose between fighting and spell casting, I almost always chose spellcasting: flinging sunspears about or dropping flamestrikes tends to be faster and more reliable.The clerical based group is much more vulnerable to ambush.  If someone attacks before their buff spells are cast, then much of their prowess is gone.  Base attack suffers as well with clerics.  Not only does lower base attack reduce the number of attacks per round, it also affects many feats.  Power attack and expertise are both limited by base attack.  Other feats such as improved critical can't be gained until much later.  A fighter takes improved crit at level 8, a cleric needs to wait until level 12.  Power attack is very important for a fighter, especially against stuff like Giralons with big damage and little AC.  When fully buffed, our main fighter could do a full power attack and still hit on almost every attack.  Also, just as clerics can use magic items to supplement buffs, fighters can do the same thing.  Spell storing items provide a tremendous boost to fighting characters.  Not only do they help cover for major weaknesses, but they can also serve to channel self only spells to others.  For example, I can put a Heal spell into the fighter's ioun stone and let him watch his own HP.  Alternatively, I can stick one of the same Persistent divine Favors that I use into the stone.  The fighter can now benefit from a nifty +3 luck bonus to attack.Finally, clerics that use buffs to out do fighters are pretty tough.  However, the same spells applied to the fighter turn him into a Killing Machine.  Casting buffs on the fighter helps him more than it helps the cleric, since his base attack is higher so he has more attacks and can better use power attack - and he can use his feats to apply those bonuses against lots of enemies at once.  If the cleric buffs the fighter with the biggest spells, then he gets alot better.  And the cleric's actions in combat are free as well.  The cleric will still probably have several spells left.  He can use a divine power to boost his fighting ability to a respectable level, or wing some searing lights and flamestrikes around.  After all, combats are usually short, and there are precious few actions to be had.  It's better to have 2 members operating at high levels of effectiveness, rather than just having the cleric operating at a high level.However, multiple clerics are really good.  Clerics get much weaker the more non cleric members of the group they need to support.  For example, our group normally had a cleric (my character), a fighter rogue, a ranger, a paladin, a wizard, and sorcerer.  3 fighting classes to support with bull's str, greater magic weapon, etc.  And of course almost everyone wants endurance.  I don't have that many spells left over for healing, self buffs, blasting and utility.  One day the paladin and ranger don't show up.  Now not only do I have enough spells to buff myself up with GMW and strength, but I've also got exra magics.  I finally get the chance to fight and cast good spells. It would be much more effective to have 3 clerics and one main fighter than to have 3 main fighters and only one cleric.  However, replacing the main fighter with another cleric probably loses the group combat readiness and versatility.</blockquote>

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