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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ArchfiendBobbie" data-source="post: 7311435" data-attributes="member: 6867728">The players often approach the table with a different mindset than they do with real life, even if they do not realize it. This isn't Call of Cthulhu, where you can expect the DM may be actively trying to kill you with some of the options; it's not part of the game for that to be considered acceptable, as we've seen in several arguments on the subject over the years.The other problem is, you're operating under a false idea of how human logic works and what marks adult-level decisions. Many people in real life who are adults and that have passed grade school make the decision to be heroes instead of surrendering. So this is not a case of elementary-level logic, but a case of deciding that death is better than surrendering.Actual adventurers, who see combat regularly and see things much more horrible than exist in the real world, have no reason not to oppose surrendering. After all, how many evil races or evil magic users would use them as slaves, sacrifices, or experiment subjects if they surrendered? Surrendering doesn't make as much sense when you consider those additional risks. At least if you die in battle, the worst that can happen is they reanimate your corpses as undead minions that will be put down by the next set of heroes.So, the question I have for you: Why would you put your players in a position like this, where they have to choose between dying or risking being subjected to some of the very horrors they've seen done to others over their careers, and then hold them as being childish or idiots simply because they decide death is preferable?The point is, the logic I have seen from you since that video was brought up for why the players should surrender is the accusation that they are children or they are too stupid to live if they don't. The majority of your argument against the video comes down to insulting the people who hold that philosophy toward the game.And your argument towards me comes under the assumption death or surrender is the only set of options when, from your earlier posts and your comment about narrating their deaths, I suspect you wouldn't even let them roll the dice and resolve it in a real battle instead of just deciding via GM fiat. I might be wrong on this. But if they roll the dice, fight the battle, and escape it (very possible) or somehow manage to actually win, what would you do then? Those are options you are not considering, and possible outcomes that are also very good reasons to refuse surrender.This is a mantra I give to all newbie DMs to repeat to themselves: "Overcoming a challenge doesn't have to mean winning a battle." Getting out of overwhelming odds alive is still overcoming a challenge.</blockquote>

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