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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 8267973" data-attributes="member: 6795602">It depends on what else that being in the state of making death saves entails.You always try to pick the whatever analogy paints my position in the worst light, when there are much better ones that don't do that.  My position isn't really like Coyote hovering off the edge of the cliff before dropping - at least not anymore than being at 1hp in a death at 0 hp game could be described in a similar light.IMO, just because negative effects happens at discrete breakpoints instead of being continuous doesn't change anything IMO.Which does seem to be the crux of the disagreement - that you refuse to call something a death spiral mechanic even when it makes your character worse at fighting as the direct result of a hit with no property other than damage landing on you.Being downed is not death though.  I fully agree it's not a being downed spiral.  It's a being downed cliff.  I would say that a 'being down cliff' can be part of a death spiral.If there's something which prevents you from dying at 0 then it's not really death at 0...Death spirals occur when as a result of effects dealing nothing more than damage your character becomes worse at fighting.  So IMO, it really depends on what mechanical consequences 'holding on' entails in this scenario.Just because the death spiral takes the shape of a staircase with discrete steps doesn't make it something other than a death sprial.</blockquote>

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