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Message: <blockquote data-quote="DrSpunj" data-source="post: 1484306" data-attributes="member: 994">Hmmm. That's interesting. So the first feat, or a significant add-on ability, would cost more, but upgrades would cost less. Hmmm. I like that! Definitely a different way to classify abilities than I'd originally done, but it may very well work better.Now it's just a matter of opinion on what's an add-on and what's an upgrade. Mind if we work on the Bard as an example? Let's try to flesh these out as much as possible. May need to use different terminology for the feats since we're categorizing them differently than Combat & non-combat. Not sure what to use though...what about "Base" and "Expansion"?Bardic MusicPrereq: Caster Level >0, Perform 3 ranksAllows 1 song per level per day. Choose one "song" from: Inspire Courage +1, Countersong, Fascinate to start with. Others may be gained with the appropriate Expansion feat.Cost: BaseNotes: So this is obviously a base. I know I originally started with Inspire Courage as the freebie here, but it seems natural under this expansion classification that any of the 1st level songs could be taken for free with the others being picked up as Expansion feats.Bardic LorePrereq: Bardic MusicAllows Lore checks with a +1 bonus/levelCost: BaseNotes: Bardic Lore is certainly not a Combat ability, but it is definitely an "add-on" or "new" ability from Bardic Music so under your classification I see it as costing more. By taking it at low levels you enjoy it's power over the lifetime of the PC. By taking it at high levels you start using it with a hefty +Level bonus. Either way, I think it's worth the higher cost. Actually, now that I think about it, it's not unreasonable to consider it an expansion power from Bardic Music but then I'd only allow the bonus to accrue from the time you took the feat, not your class level. By that I mean, if you took it at level 1, by level 20 you'd get a +20; if you took it at level 18, by level 20 you'd get a +3. That's far more consistent with Core but is a snitch more bookkeeping.SpellsongPrereq: Bardic MusicAllows you to ignore/reduce Arcane Spell Failure by up to 10%.Cost: BaseInspire CouragePrereq: Bardic Music, Perform 3 ranksAllows use of the Inspire Courage song. Starts at +1. Every 6 levels can be taken again to increase the bonus by 1.Cost: ExpansionCountersongPrereq: Bardic Music, Perform 3 ranksAllows use of the Countersong song.Cost: ExpansionFascinatePrereq: Bardic Music, Perform 3 ranksAllows use of the Fascinate song.Cost: ExpansionInspire CompetencePrereq: Bardic Music, Perform 6 ranksAllows use of the Inspire Competence song.Cost: ExpansionSuggestionPrereq: Bardic Music, Perform 6 ranksAllows use of the Suggestion song.Cost: ExpansionInspire GreatnessPrereq: Bardic Music, Perform 12 ranksAllows use of the Inspire Greatness song.Cost: ExpansionSong of FreedomPrereq: Bardic Music, Perform 15 ranksAllows use of the Song of Freedom song.Cost: ExpansionInspire HeroicsPrereq: Bardic Music, Perform 18 ranksAllows use of the Inspire Heroics song.Cost: ExpansionMass SuggestionPrereq: Bardic Music, Perform 21 ranksAllows use of the Mass Suggestion song.Cost: ExpansionWell, that wasn't too bad. It worked out rather well, if a bit simplistic because the Bard really only has his songs.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f60e.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":cool:" title="Cool    :cool:"  data-smilie="6"data-shortname=":cool:" /> Alright, maybe I'll try the Barbarian next since he's a bit more varied...Good, that's also very close (doubled) to my values of 9 & 14. At least we're working along the same lines.The thing that prevents me from cutting the points in half as you have done keeping the Save paths. By switching to the "you get so many free +1's to your saves" each level you've bypassed that. I honestly I don't think I like it as well, but it's not overly complicated and using less points to allocate at each level is very appealing. I'll think about it. It certainly is a lot more versatile.What do you mean by "a few levels ahead of time?" If you mean paying points now for abilities you don't get until later, well, that's not something I much care for. What I most like about the methodology we're using is that you get an immediate benefit wherever you spend your points. I do think paying more up front to open the door to a set of related abilities makes a lot of sense, and I want to keep pursuing it and see how it works out, but that's about all the "investment" I'm willing to buy (or offer, as the DM).I think I'm leaning towards this as well. As I said above with the Bardic Lore feat, which also fits for Bardic Music, someone using this character system is going to have to keep track of when they purchased each class ability. You can only take Sneak Attack every other level, so you have to know if you took it last level or the level before. That's the most basic example I can think of, and not all that difficult for someone to remember, but what if you're looking at the Barb's DR which is every 3rd? Or his extra Rages at every 4th?The Core character sheet has that long open column on the back for Feats & Special Abilities. With this system I see people using that to keep track of specifically which level they took their abilities. I think I'm really warming to the idea that certain abilities will scale with character level, but only count the levels after you take the ability. That is, if you take Bardic Lore at 1st level you'll have a nice +20 bonus at 20th; however, if you waited until 11th level to pick it up, you'll max out with only a +10 bonus at 20th level.Bardic Music would work the same way since it offers 1 song per level. That probably shouldn't allow someone who takes Bardic Music at 20th level to all of a sudden get to play 20 songs a day. Instead, they should be limited to just 1 song.Thanks for the input, ouini! I really appreciate the sounding board. Things are definitely improving and headed in the right direction, I think!  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> Thanks.DrSpunj</blockquote>

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