Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
ShortQuests -- individual adventure modules! An all-new collection of digest-sized D&D adventures designed to plug in to your game.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="kerbarian" data-source="post: 3035461" data-attributes="member: 40393">The chain of reasoning is:The MM lumps the entire BAB-based set of iterative attacks (and modifications to them such as TWF) together into a "manufactured attack" that's separate from secondary natural attacks.A flurry of blows is a modification to the BAB attacks, as shown in the monk table and described in the text:  "The resulting modified base attack bonuses are shown in the Flurry of Blows Attack Bonus column..."If a flurry is a modification of the BAB-based set of iterative attacks and such iterations are lumped together by the MM rules into a "manufactured attack", then that means a flurry of blows is treated by the MM rules as a "manufactured attack".If the flurry is treated as a "manufactured attack" by the MM rules, then secondary natural attacks are not part of the flurry.Again, though, we're down to interpretation.  My second item about a flurry of blows being a modification to the BAB-based set of iterative attacks is not what I'd call clear and explicit in the rules <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />.  It seems pretty reasonable to me, though, and I don't see anything in the rules that contradicts it.  Deciding that the flurry includes all attacks made as part of a full attack action is also fairly reasonable, but there's nothing in the rules that's clear and explicit about that, either.So I think at this point we're arguing about the intent of the writers, which probably isn't going to go anywhere.  Do you agree?  Or do you think that the RAW clearly state that a flurry includes any natural attacks?You're right, I should have worded that more carefully.  Instead of the BAB attack progression, I should have referred to the BAB-based set of iterative attacks.In thinking about this, I just realized an interesting option for monsters with high BAB.  Consider a juvenile red dragon, which has a BAB of +16.  With its strength of 29, size large, and assuming it takes multiattack, it normally has a full attack of:Bite +24 (2d6+9), 2 claws +22, (1d8+4), 2 wings +22 (1d6+4), and tail slap +22 (1d8+13)Now say the dragon takes Improved Unarmed Strike.  Could it choose to make a full attack of unarmed strikes using one of its claws and then take the rest of its natural attacks as secondary?  That would give it a full attack of:Unarmed strike +24/+19/+14/+9 (1d4+9), bite +22 (2d6+4), claw +22 (1d8+4), 2 wings +22 (1d6+4), and tail slap +22 (1d8+13)which looks significantly better than its normal full attack.  For example, vs. AC 25, it would deal an average damage of 79 rather than 62.For that matter, is there any reason a dragon couldn't wield a greatsword?  And wear armor?  For hyper-intelligent creatures, you'd think they would have figured that out by now if it's possible <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />.</blockquote>

Verification