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Message: <blockquote data-quote="doctorbadwolf" data-source="post: 9098953" data-attributes="member: 6704184">Knights are part of an organization by definition. The Vengeance Paladin adds in a bit of righteous assassin (what dnd insists on calling an avenger for some reason), which are also generally (almost always) part of an organization. The entire premise of the paladin is a holy knight.None of that means they have to be, or that the organization has to be religious in nature, but it's hardly a wild statement to say that it makes sense for them to be. They're holy knights. I can't even easily think of any characters in media that I'd naturally call a paladin that isn't associated with a god, a church, or both.You are using "strongly associated" very differently from me, then. Because it doesn't mean that the thing is an essential part. It just means that it's...associated...strongly. I genuinely don't know what could lead from one to the other.WHy on earth do you keep leaping from my non-absolute statements to absolutes made up in your own head? It's exceptionally frustrating. "Requires" has nothing at all to do with what I said. What I said is that the Vengeance Paladin makes the most sense as part of a religious organization, and in service to a deity.Please stop conflating what I say with the most absolutist wild statements you can think of to reinterpret what I've said as.I went back and checked. Care to point out what you said that was meant to address that they're both getting their power from faith? And frankly, they shouldn't have different casting stats, they just wanted Paladins to be good at social skills naturally, and that was the easy way to do it.Similar to cleric and paladin, not much. They both get their magic from Nature, and what that means for each class is distinguished by class features, and to a smaller degree the differences in spell lists.</blockquote>

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