Druids - wildshape and controlling an animal companion

[Quasqueton]

In our last game, we had a situation where the druid needed to "drag" his animal companion underwater and through a flooded tunnel. The druid used wildshape to become a crocodile for the water movement. So the badger in question had to submit to being held in the croc's mouth and taken under water for 2 rounds.

The Player rolled very well on his handle animal check (but I don't remember the number off hand -- it was better than the 25 needed to push a trained animal), and I allowed the action with the caveat that I might not next time. I said I wanted to think about the concept, and run it by the ENWorld rules gurus.

1: Can a druid control and convince his animal companion while wildshaped (into something not like the companion)?

2: How big a increase to the DC should a DM enforce to do something like this? Should it be possible at all?

Quasqueton

 

[jgsugden]

Animal companions are like other trained animals: They respond to a certain number of commands. Your player should have a list of tricks learned by their AC. Those commands should be automatically followed. There is a whole section in the book about those tricks.

For the most part, if it isn't on that list, the PC needs to spend some time to try to get the animal to perform as requested. How much time depends upon the task at hand. How likely he is to actually get the animal to follow the unusual order is up to the DM.

For instance, a wolf that has not been trained to ride in a wagon might be tenative at first, but it seems unlikely that a DM should even roll a die if a PC wants to have his AC ride in a wagon with him.

On the other hand, if a PC wants to have his AC hop into and ride a flaming flying chariot, the DM should assign a handle animal DC and roll some dice to see how effective the PC is in persuading the animal that jumping into a ball of flames is a good idea.

In your example, where a PC (in crocodile form) wants to convince a badger that staying in the crocodile's mouth is a good idea. I'd assign a penalty for the druid because he is in wildshaped form while convincing the animal. The extent of that penalty would depend upon how often the badger had seen the PC in wildshape form, especially in crocodile form. If this was a common occurence, the DC penalty might be only +2. If this was the first time the wolf had ever seen the druid change shape, the DC penalty might be +10. Those numbers were pulled out of my butt, but they seem to fit in the ballpark.

You seemed to handle it appropriately.

 

[busker]

In my campaign, the druid's animal companion still recognizes the druid even when the druid is wildshaped, but if the druid can't communicate with the animal then the druid can't give it commands. The animal will either defend his master or follow the last command, as appropriate.

The rules don't really say how wildshaping affects the animal companion.

-busker

 

[Diirk]

Given that animals don't understand common anyway, saying that you lose all ability to communicate once you can't speak it anymore seems a little silly. As for the time taken thing, "handling" his companion is a free action for a druid and "pushing" it is a move or standard (I think move, someone more motivated can check the SRD I'm sure).

Getting an animal to perform pretrained tricks can involve whistling, spoken commands you've trained it to recognize, gestures... basically anything. For a druid thats going to wildshape alot, I'd probably suggest stamping on the ground in certain patterns, or something else that will be unhindered.

For "pushing" the animal tho, there is no pre set trigger.. its not necessarily ever been pushed to that task before, so how would you do it? Any gestures you make, words etc will be useless as it won't understand them... I guess there is that vague empathic link...

 

[jgsugden]

Given that animals don't understand common anyway, saying that you lose all ability to communicate once you can't speak it anymore seems a little silly. As for the time taken thing, "handling" his companion is a free action for a druid and "pushing" it is a move or standard (I think move, someone more motivated can check the SRD I'm sure).

A command must be issued for it to be followed. I'd assume that commands would normally be given in common unless otherwise specified. Even if the command is something that can be performed in animal form (stomping a foot, etc ...), it is not entirely clear that an animal could equate the stomping of a crocodile foot as equivalent to the stomping of a human foot, even if the animal understands that his 'master' is now that crocodile. A crocodile stomp and a human stomp are quite different in appearance and sound.

As for timing issues, the rules state that druids can handle an AC as a free action and push them as a move equivalent. This, however, is only the time it takes them to get them to do something that the animal already *understands* through prior training. As a general rule, if it would take longer than 6 seconds to mime instructions to another person who did not understand the situation, it would take longer than 1 round for you to get an animal companion to follow instructions. This is not specified in the rules, but it is common sense. If you want this broken down into game terms, complex commands may actually be a series of simpler commands. A complex command might actually involve pushing the animal 4 times - which takes 4 move equiavlent actions.

As for the issue of how you push an animal: In real life, one can direct an animal in a variety of ways. The most common are building off an established command and showing the animal what is to be done and what the reward for doing it will be. Pushing an animal, IMHO, should be similar to these processes. Nothing that I see indicates that the ability to instruct an animal companion is magical.

 

[AuraSeer]

I've seen dogs that know their master so well, they respond to his eye movements and facial expressions. If he glanced at an object in a certain way, a dog would go and gets it. If he frowned at some noisy geese in the yard, a dog ran out to chase them away.

I don't remember all the details, but the point is that you can command an animal without speaking, or even gesturing much. That should be especially true for D&D druids, who are supposed to be divinely in tune with all animals. So I don't think I'd ever totally prevent a druid from handling or pushing his companion, no matter what shape he was in.

However, I have no problem with assigning a penalty in unusual situations. For instance, prey animals are instinctively skittish around predators, so a druid in tiger shape might take a -2 penalty on commands to his horse. For the case in the OP-- convincing the companion to climb into a crocodile's mouth-- I'd assign a penalty of around -6, making it very difficult but still possible.

 

[AuraSeer]

As for timing issues, the rules state that druids can handle an AC as a free action and push them as a move equivalent. This, however, is only the time it takes them to get them to do something that the animal already *understands* through prior training.

That is not so. Under the rules, "pushing" is specifically defined as having the animal do something it isn't trained for, but is physically capable of performing. That's the roll for making a warhorse play fetch, even if it has never seen that trick before in its life.

Nothing that I see indicates that the ability to instruct an animal companion is magical.

It's not magical, it's Extraordinary. See the Link (Ex) ability.
Correspondence between real life and the game world only goes so far. A D&D rogue can come out of a fireball unscathed, even though his RL equivalent would almost certainly die if caught in a grenade's blast.

 

[Diirk]

As for the issue of how you push an animal: In real life, one can direct an animal in a variety of ways. The most common are building off an established command and showing the animal what is to be done and what the reward for doing it will be.

Thats a pretty generous move equivalent action.

 

[Ottergame]

I have taught my dog to know tricks in two different ways, with words and hand motions.

She knows sitting means "sit" or when I snap my fingers.

Lay down is "lay" or when I snap my fingers and point at her.

Shake is "shake" or when I tap her leg or hold my hand out to her.

You can teach an animal to do commands that have nothing to do with speaking or making nosies. As long as the animal can see you, they can do those tricks.

And by the way, my dog will do the same tricks with someone else doing to same hand motions, so it's not just limited to who trained them. If a druid's animal companion knos the druid changes form, there's no real reason why they can't do the same command based on criteria other than speech.

 

[uzagi_akimbo]

So I guess the question does wind down to whether the animal companion (AC) will recognize any trained signals and/or can connect some new or adapted signals in relatioon to a n unknown situation ( = being "pushed" ).

As for the initial example - I myslef would be _hard_ pressed to allow it. The badger AC would have severe problems recognizing any verbal or gestured commands from his "master" if said master is in ainmal form, especially something as unexpressive and unrelated to a badger as a large crocodile. Second - ACs react ( to most things ) as normal, unaugmented animals of their type do (according to the PHB )..

To the badger the crocodile would be a large and dangerous (toothy..) predator - even if it might somehow recognise it as being the "master". Climbing into a large carnivorous predator's mouth on _trust_ would be anything but natural for a badger. So would being meekly drowned, ahem, "submerged" for a specific time. (how would the badger know it will be coming up for air anytime soon ?).
Also, any gestures or commands from the master would be at a massive penalty - we are talking different head, no arms (forelegs, sure. Very prehensile, those... ) and alien bodily stance. No voice, no pheromones to take clues from. Communication penalty to animal empathy not below -6 IMHO.. -10 taking into account the situational (crocodile) modifiers.

So without prior "speak with animals" instructions, or some other form of magical support - _only_ as a predetermined, specific "trick".
Unless - it would keep the rest of the party aggrvated/bored/irritated for the next few hours while the druid works out how to bring the d**ded pet along.....
GM's choice , or rather "call". But only based upon furthering the story and fun. Or if siad druid is one's GF., hehe
my 2 cents

uzagi