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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Knight_Errant" data-source="post: 1589918" data-attributes="member: 6995">Duelist part 2--The Mech--LONG replyGreetings again,I apologize for the length of this post ahead of time and for the fact it took me so long to reply. I hope this helps some.DUELISTGAME RULE INFORMATIONDuelists have the following game statistics.Abilities: Dexterity, Wisdom, Charisma and Intelligence are the most important ability scores for the duelist. Duelists rely on speed, accuracy, precision, perception and sharp whit over brawn to master their style of fighting. A common maxim among duelist masters is: “Defeating an opponent through knowledge of that opponent is more effective even than your skill with a blade.”Alignment: Any Non-ChaoticHit Die: d10Starting Gold: 5d4X10gpThis all looks good to me. The only question I would have raised was the hit die, however, when I read the armor restrictions it makes sense to beef up their hit points.CLASS SKILLSThe class skills of the duelist are: Balance, Bluff, Craft, Diplomacy, Dueling*, Gather Information, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Local), Perform, Profession, Sense Motive, Spot, Tumble and Use Rope.Skill Points for 1st Level: (4+INT modifier) x4Skill Points at Each Additional Level: 4+INT modifierNo problems with the skill points or starting skill points; I do however wonder about Gather Information and Perform. While I can see both as being useful to the Duelist, I don’t think they quite fit the concept of the class—insofar as I understand it. If I had to choose one of these to keep, I could see the argument for Perform; though it is shaky IMO. Gather Info on the other hand, seems out of place as a class skill—useful, but not necessary to the class.Diplomacy vs. Intimidate: This is another sticky area IMO. Most classes grant one or the other and not both. The rationale for which is pretty clear; either you convince people (i.e. diplomacy) that your way of thinking is correct, or you bully them into doing your bidding (i.e. intimidate). I can see your thinking here (at least I think I can)—the duelist can choose which way he would like to travel the road of personal interaction; however, many of the abilities you have listed for the class seem more in line with Intimidate than Diplomacy. Overall, I’d say drop diplomacy and keep intimidate.NEW CLASS SKILLDUELING (Charisma): The duelist uses this skill to gather their focus and concentration in combat, and especially in a Formal Duel.Check: If the duelist attacks a flat-footed opponent immediately after drawing any weapon for which they may use the Duelist’s Grace ability, they may deal extra damage based on the result of their Dueling skill check (as follows). Code:Check Result    Extra Damage    Check Result    Extra Damage11-15        +1d6        36-40        +6d616-20        +2d6        41-45        +7d621-25        +3d6        46-50        +8d626-30        +4d6        51+        +9d6 (max)31-35        +5d6This seems to be very similar to the OA rules for Iaijutsu. I don’t see any inherent problems with using this system for the Duelist. No changes recommended here.CLASS FEATURESAll of the following are class features for the Duelist.Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Duelists gains proficiency with the following Weapon Groups (as per Unearthed Arcana weapon group feats) and are proficient in light armor but not with shield. Weapon Group (Light Blades): Dagger, Punching Dagger, Rapier, and Short Sword.Weapon Group (Duelist Blades): Cutlass, Khopesh, Main Gauche, Long Sword, Saber, Scimitar (including Daphan Scimitar), Singing Sword, Smallsword, Soldano Blade, Sword Cane, Torres Blade, and the specialized rapiers: Aldana Blade, Dietrich Sword, Gallegos Blade and Zepeda Blade.(See “3E Weapons & Armor.doc” for descriptions of new items. Note – many of these are from Forgotten Realms or Swashbuckling Adventures.)The only suggestions I would make here is to ditch the weapon groups from UA. While I don’t necessarily think they are a bad thing—it is difficult to make this class fit with other generic settings which may want to use these rules. The bottom line is you are better off writing it as generic as possible and keeping additional rules like this for your own games.I would simply assign them weapons they are proficient in, much like the other core classes, and list their armor and shield proficiency here. The special weapons you have listed can remain in parenthesis for your own notes if you like, but I’d take them out of the list as “class” proficiencies.Finally, I don’t see any real issues with the weapons listed as being inappropriate; though I do wonder why you chose to list them this way. I would also point out (to those who are dense like myself) that there are no ranged weapons listed here. I like that. Duelist’s Grace (Ex): With any weapon from the Light Blade or Duelist Blade weapon groups or any other weapon normally allowed to be finessed, the duelist gains the benefit of the Weapon Finesse feat, even if they or their weapon would normally not qualify for the feat. And this maybe why you did it that way afterall. However, the same end can be accomplished by stating that the duelist may apply the weapon finesse feat to any weapon on his class list—even if that weapon is not normally allowed by the feat. For simplicity sake, I understand what you are doing here, I just think that as a core class, you should stick to the format of the core rules. Denigrating Banter (Ex): Duelists become experts at sizing up their opponents and assaulting the opponent’s self-confidence and pride with taunts and jibes. At 6th level their skill with this tactic reaches a fine-tuning that allows them to truly demoralize their opponents with naught but words. The duelist gains a +4 bonus to Intimidate checks and can demoralize an opponent (as a standard action as described in the Intimidate skill description in the Player’s Handbook).This is where our concepts of what a Duelist should be able to do mech-wise start to differ. From a roleplaying standpoint, I can see where this would be useful for a duelist. However, I’m not sure that I like this as an ability of the class per se; the reason being that I don’t see this as a function of someone who fights single opponents in a structured setting (for the most part). While it is an interesting ability to grant them, I don’t think it truly fits with the remaining abilities. That said, I have noted that your “archetype” for this class was Archibald Cunningham from Rob Roy; therefore I can see where the concept for this ability came from. The only comment I can offer to this is that perhaps that is too narrow a focus for a core class concept. Futhermore, it is a difference of opinion, but one that I think merits some thought. Does this really need to be a class ability?Finally, this leads back into my comment about class skills. This ability (and those similar to it) would seem to indicate that Intimidate is the only necessary persuasion skill the duelist requires; thereby negating diplomacy as an option.Now for some comments on the other abilities similar to this one above:Jibing Insult (Ex): Once per day, a duelist of 7th level may use these skills of taunting their enemies in such a way that their banter and jibbing insults can be as effective as a weapon. When the duelist uses this extra-special jibing insult (a free action), their next attack gains a bonus on the attack and damage rolls equal to their Charisma bonus (minimum +1). As the duelist gains levels, they may make a jibing insult twice per day at 12th level, and thrice per day at 17th level.This doesn’t seem broken or unbalanced but I do wonder about its usefulness. Using it as a free action might be a bit questionable since most of the bards abilities require a standard action and don’t accomplish nearly as much as this does.Improved Denigrating Banter (Ex): A duelist’s practice at this technique improves to the point that they can size-up their opponents and assault them with denigrating banter, taunts and jibes with just a quick inspection. At 11th level their skill with this tactic reaches its pinnacle allowing the duelist to demoralize an opponent as a move action rather than as a standard action.Again, my hesitation here is based on the fact that the core class who is supposed to have abilities like this, i.e. the Bard, does not. Therefore, I don’t see this as balanced in the grand scheme of things.Intimidating Presence (Ex): At 18th level, the duelist’s reputation for death, their prowess, and their swift tongue have become legend. When the duelist draws any weapon with which they can use the Weapon Finesse feat, opponents within 30’ must succeed a Will save (DC 20 + duelist’s Charisma modifier) or become panicked for 4d6 rounds (if they have 4 or fewer Hit Dice) or shaken for 4d6 rounds (if they have between 5 and 19 Hit Dice). Creatures with 20 or more Hit Dice are unaffected. Any foe that succeeds the Will save cannot be affected again by the same duelist’s intimidating presence for 24 hours.This ability I like to a certain extent, though as I mentioned before, I’m not sure I like any of these “intimidation line” abilities. If I had to choose one to keep, this would more than likely be it; however, it does again trump the Bard class (not that its hard to do that accidentally). To sum up what I’ve been rambling on about for a while: I don’t think that the duelist necessarily needs abilities that build off of the intimidate skill in this fashion. I would think that they would receive abilities based on single combat and showmanship rather than improved bard-like abilities. Afterall, they are a combat oriented class; not an armed insult thrower. I think their abilities should reflect their training instead of focusing on a role-playing dependent line of abilities.My solution: remove the “banter” based abilities and replace them with more combat oriented skills and abilities. That said, let me make one final comment regarding a few of the combat abilities the duelist does have at this time.Weakening Strike (Ex): At 14th level, a duelist that scores a critical hit against an opponent that is not immune to critical hits, also deals an additional 2 points of Strength damage to that creature.Wounding Strike (Ex): At 19th level, a duelist that scores a critical hit against an opponent that is not immune to critical hits, also deals an additional 2 points of Constitution damage to that creature. This is in addition to the Strength damage dealt by the Weakening Strike ability.I would avoid abilities that deal ability point damage were I you. This class (if it attacks someone flat-footed or in a formal duel) has a lot of dice to keep track of initially; adding ability point damage to that equation only complicates things.The only rational I can offer for my dislike of this type of ability rule-wise is that no other base class gains abilities like this (with perhaps the exception of the Rogue). Here are some suggestions for abilities that would make sense for the duelist to have (Name of the book is listed at the top, page numbers in parenthesis):Sword & FistImproved Feint (21)Exhaust Opponent (22)Roar of the Crowd (22)Make them Bleed (22)Elaborate Parry (18)Swashbuckling AdventuresCounterattack (131)Disarm Master (132)Extra Finesse (133)Parry (139)Riposte (141)Slip (143)Stay on their Tail (143)This list is by no means complete, just a rough outline of some sources you might want to look at for ideas. Remember that granting the duelist bonus feats with a set list to choose from could also accomplish the same end.Hope that helps some, looking forward to comments.</blockquote>

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