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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Khaalis" data-source="post: 1594023" data-attributes="member: 2167">More discussion on the topic of AC (and abilities). There are three distinctive stances.1) Get an AC bonus at ALL times, 2) Get an AC bonus vs. SINGLE opponent, 3) Don’t get an AC bonus at allArguments for #1* The Monk, Duelist PrC, and Unfettered get it as secondary fighter types.* The class needs it to compete with even a 1st level fighter’s AC.Arguments against #1:* Rangers Don’t get it and are d8HD secondary fighters with light armor only.* Monk’s are probably the most powerful class in the game.* Swashbucklers Don’t get it and are d10HD secondary fighters with light armor only.Arguments for #2* Swashbucklers get AC this way.Arguments against #2:* The Monk, Duelist PrC, and Unfettered get it as permanent.* Rangers Don’t get it and are d8HD secondary fighters with light armor only.Arguments for #3* Rangers Don’t get it and are d8HD secondary fighters with light armor only.* Monk’s are probably the most powerful class in the game.Arguments against #3:* The Monk, Duelist PrC, Unfettered and Swashbuckler all get AC Bonus.* The class needs it to compete with even a 1st level fighter’s AC.So where does that leave us?  Of the core classes - Rangers, who are Light Armor only d8HD fighter types, DO NOT get an AC bonus - but Monk’s who are a NO Armor d8HD fighter types DO. Lets look at some comparison of AC by level among the related/disputed classes. 1) We’ll assume worst-case scenario of 18 in all related stats (from 1st) for equality. 2) Also assume the following for Best Armor: Monk/DuelistPrC = None, Ranger/Swashbuckler/Unfettered = Chain Shirt (+4) / Fighter = Full Plate & Tower (+12)Level.........Monk.....Ranger.....Fighter..........Unfettered.....Swashbuckler*.....DuelistPrC1..................18...........18.......…..23....................19...............18 (18)..................N/A3..................18...........18........….23....................20...............18 (18)..................N/A5..................19...........18........….23....................20...............18 (19)..................N/A6..................19...........18........….23....................21...............18 (19)..................N/A7..................19...........18........….23....................21...............18 (19)..................158..................19...........18........….23....................21...............18 (19)..................169..................19...........18........….23....................22...............18 (19)..................1710................20...........18........….23....................22...............18 (20)..................1812................20...........18........….23....................23...............18 (20)..................1813................20...........18........….23....................23...............18 (20)..................18 (25)^15................21...........18........….23....................24...............18 (21)..................18 (27)^16................21...........18........….23....................24...............18 (21)..................18 (28)^18................21...........18........….23....................25...............18 (21)..................N/A20................22...........18........….23....................25...............18 (22)..................N/A* Swashbuckler (and Duelist) =  Base AC (Bonus AC vs. 1 opponent only)^ Duelist PrC = IF fighting defensivelyAlso compare… Class Abilities (Does not count iterations of the same ability)Monk = 24 Abilities; d8; 3 Good Saves; Medium BAB; AC 22Ranger = 13 Abilities; d8; 2 Good Saves; Good BAB; AC 18Fighter = 11 Feats; d10; 1 Good Save; Good BAB; AC 23Unfettered = 11 Abilities (1 is iterated +5d6 sneak); d8; 1 Good Save; Good BAB; AC 25Swashbuckler = 11 Abilities; d10; 1 Good Save; Good BAB; AC 18 (22)Duelist PrC = 9 abilities; d10; 1 Good Save; Good BAB; AC 18 (28)^Duelist (As is) = 10 Abilities; d10; 1 Good Save; Good BAB; AC 18 (22)*Thus in an analysis we can come to the following conclusions.1) Monks are one of the most powerful classes (like we didn’t already know this?) – So they are OUT of the picture in respect to balance, especially as their Max base AC falls respectably between Fighter and Ranger (it gets massively abused with magic).2) Of the Core classes the Fighter has the highest possible base AC3) The Ranger lags behind the fighter on AC by 5 points, lags on HD by average 1hp/die, but gains 2 good saves and 2 more class abilities then the fighter.4) The Swashbuckler as written, is equivalently balanced to a Fighter.5) The Duelist PrC is almost as good as any one of the Core fighting classes but it forces defensive fighting as the preferred style6) The Duelist class, as written, seems lacking.Why?Compared to a Fighter = Lacks in AC (-5) and 1 class abilityCompared to a Ranger = Lacks a good save and 3 class abilities (but has 1hp/die better hp)Compared to Swashbuckler = Lacks 1 class ability and lacks an AC boost (+4)Compared to the Unfettered = Lacks 1 class ability and AC Boost (+7), (but has 1hp/die better hp)Compared to the PrC = Has 1 more class ability over 20 levels vs. 10 PrC, and lacks an AC boost (+10)However… Does the Dueling skill count as 1 Class Ability? It adds sneak attack against a flat-footed (No Dex) opponent, but only immediately after drawing their weapon and only then. So it is limited to once per combat and Only IF they go first or can cause the opponent to go flat-footed again.  Is it balanced to the Rogue’s Sneak Attack or the Unefettered’s Sneak Attack enough to count as a Class Ability? I would think yes.So this would leave the question of AC.Currently they are restricted as swashbucklers and ranger with an 18 base AC, but have the swashbuckler +4 AC vs. One opponent that rangers DON’T have; and have an average of 1hp/die better Hit Points than rangers; but have worse saves and less class abilities than a ranger.The unfettered is a good class but is too free form for the concept of the duelist and is designed for a lower-magic setting where it is designed not to have as much access to magic protection. Thus its +7 AC to all opponents I feel is too much for the concept of the Duelist. Like the Swashbuckler the Duelist is trained to focus on a single combatant.Overall, after looking at the arguments, and the numbers, I think the +4 to AC vs. a single opponent is the best AC bonus for the class.  However, with that said, I am also going to divert the class into a “Combat Style” focused class like Rangers and Monks rather than a set ability class like the Swashbuckler.These Styles could add additional defense abilities, the intensity of the bonus being reliant on the focus of the style. Examples:Dodge (+1 AC vs. 1 Opp.)…..Improved Dodge (+3 AC vs. 1 Opp.)………. Superior Dodge (+5 AC vs. All)Defensive Parry (+1 AC per 2 levels when fighting defensively)Offensive Parry (Add INT mod to AC vs. 1 Opp.)Acrobatic Dodge (Dex Mod times per day = Ref Save (DC20+magic) to avoid damage)The question is… What styles?  Doing styles will give a template that can be followed, and will allow some freedom to those using the class to develop their own styles, just as this thread (<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=90444" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=90444</a>) is doing for Ranger styles. Some ideas off the cuff:Unscrupulous: Improved Feint, Dirty Fighting, Improved Critical, Power CriticalSpecialist: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon SpecializationOffensive Dual Wielder: Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, Improved Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Two-Weapon FightingDefensive Dual Wielder: Two-Weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Defense, Twin Sword Style, Improved Two-Weapon DefensePrecision: Extra Finesse, Improved Critical, Weakening Strike, Wounding StrikeDefender: Improved Dodge, Defensive Strike, Defensive Parry, Acrobatic DodgeIntimidation: Denigrating Banter, Jibing Insult, Improved Denigrating Banter, Intimidating PresenceThoughts?</blockquote>

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